darrenyeats
pfm Member
Ha ha!
DBO IV: Mo-Fo (South) (Saturday, January 10, 2015)
- Thread starter Whaleblue
- Start date
PhilCTTE
Senior mumbler
The "diplomatic process is beginning to breakdown" ... Well it has completely with the now ex ..so unfortunately looks like I can't make it . Was really looking forward to this , but I have child care duties and at this late stage can't find a work around.
Enjoy chaps !
Looking forward to the results . Maybe in the near future I'll host an event.
Enjoy chaps !
Looking forward to the results . Maybe in the near future I'll host an event.
Whaleblue
Southbound
Summary:
1. Sonos isn't quite as good as I thought it was.
2. The DAC built into my Leema Pyxis amp is very good.
3. The Mirus is a little better, but not enough to bother me (given the cost, I'm happy with the Pyxis built in DAC)
4. ATC 50s officially are da biz.
5. Blind testing was limited, but conclusive (enough for those present, but no one else I'm sure) between the Sonos and the quiet PC into the Pyxis DAC.
6. Blind testing between the Mirus direct to ATC (which I felt was its best showing) and the Pyxis direct to ATC was impractical, so didn't happen.
7. There is/was some disagreement about the importance of the source (Rega Apollo vs quiet PC running JRiver), but...
8. Blind and sighted testing very quickly becomes tiresome and the will to continue diminishes, so learning eventually comes to an end.
9. Thanks to those who attended for coming.
10. My DAC investigations are over for now, and I'm happy with the one in the Pyxis. I think I'm now repeating myself, so will stop.
11. ATC 50s rock. Oh, said that too. Will now stop.
[EDIT] 12. Ahhh, how rude of me - and many thanks to Mark (Item Audio) for the loan of the Mirus - hugely appreciated!
1. Sonos isn't quite as good as I thought it was.
2. The DAC built into my Leema Pyxis amp is very good.
3. The Mirus is a little better, but not enough to bother me (given the cost, I'm happy with the Pyxis built in DAC)
4. ATC 50s officially are da biz.
5. Blind testing was limited, but conclusive (enough for those present, but no one else I'm sure) between the Sonos and the quiet PC into the Pyxis DAC.
6. Blind testing between the Mirus direct to ATC (which I felt was its best showing) and the Pyxis direct to ATC was impractical, so didn't happen.
7. There is/was some disagreement about the importance of the source (Rega Apollo vs quiet PC running JRiver), but...
8. Blind and sighted testing very quickly becomes tiresome and the will to continue diminishes, so learning eventually comes to an end.
9. Thanks to those who attended for coming.
10. My DAC investigations are over for now, and I'm happy with the one in the Pyxis. I think I'm now repeating myself, so will stop.
11. ATC 50s rock. Oh, said that too. Will now stop.
[EDIT] 12. Ahhh, how rude of me - and many thanks to Mark (Item Audio) for the loan of the Mirus - hugely appreciated!
Ciunas Audio
Trade: Ciunas Audio
Hi Vital
Glad it went well & you seem to have gained some further insights.
One thing - did you not already have both the Sonus & Leema in your home? Just wondering how come you never compared them before this?
Glad it went well & you seem to have gained some further insights.
One thing - did you not already have both the Sonus & Leema in your home? Just wondering how come you never compared them before this?
Whaleblue
Southbound
John, yes, and all my blind testing came up with 'null' results.
Andrew helped quite a lot in drawing my attention to the differences to look out for, which once noted became more obvious to me, and when we did a few simple blind ABs, first him, then me, found it relatively easy to pick out the Sonos vs. the Quiet PC into the Pyxis DAC.
I'm now of the opinion that blind tests are part of the issue (and this has been an evolving feeling over the last year), and that DAC differences are still of relatively minor significance over a certain level.
As stated above, the Mirus even sighted was, to me, only a slight improvement* over my Pyxis. If I'm honest, if I had money to burn I'd listen to it some more, and if initial impressions remained, likely buy it, but it's not worth the investment to me at this time. Put more simply, I can't afford it, and it's not enough of an improvement for me to hanker after it!
*or am I telling myself this because I can't afford it?!
Anyway, I now believe that DACs don't all sound the same. They sound more the same than speakers do, but that's not the point of the four DBOs. It's been a long journey, and to 99.99% of the population would be seen as a waste of time and effort. For me, it's been fun, and perhaps most importantly I've made some new friends through it, who I know I'll continue to meet up with to share music (and little HiFi nonsense I'm sure!).
Andrew helped quite a lot in drawing my attention to the differences to look out for, which once noted became more obvious to me, and when we did a few simple blind ABs, first him, then me, found it relatively easy to pick out the Sonos vs. the Quiet PC into the Pyxis DAC.
I'm now of the opinion that blind tests are part of the issue (and this has been an evolving feeling over the last year), and that DAC differences are still of relatively minor significance over a certain level.
As stated above, the Mirus even sighted was, to me, only a slight improvement* over my Pyxis. If I'm honest, if I had money to burn I'd listen to it some more, and if initial impressions remained, likely buy it, but it's not worth the investment to me at this time. Put more simply, I can't afford it, and it's not enough of an improvement for me to hanker after it!
*or am I telling myself this because I can't afford it?!
Anyway, I now believe that DACs don't all sound the same. They sound more the same than speakers do, but that's not the point of the four DBOs. It's been a long journey, and to 99.99% of the population would be seen as a waste of time and effort. For me, it's been fun, and perhaps most importantly I've made some new friends through it, who I know I'll continue to meet up with to share music (and little HiFi nonsense I'm sure!).
Joe P
Memory Alpha incarnate | mod; Shatner number = 2
Ian,
I've unlocked the thread.
Not that I was in the market for an upscale DAC, it is still interesting that all DACs aren't the same. It would seem though that the differences are slight, so when I eventually get one I'll likely choose based on LED colour and input choice as much as on anything else.
Joe
I've unlocked the thread.
Not that I was in the market for an upscale DAC, it is still interesting that all DACs aren't the same. It would seem though that the differences are slight, so when I eventually get one I'll likely choose based on LED colour and input choice as much as on anything else.
Joe
Whaleblue
Southbound
Thanks Joe.
If it hadn't been fun I'd think myself slightly mad to have put this much effort into such an investigation, the results of which were already known by some, and won't be believed by others
I still can't quite decide how much the little differences make, and I'm sure different differences will matter to different folk. What I would say to someone such as yourself is that it is worth having a listen to hear and dismiss, or otherwise, these differences before parting with your cash.
If it hadn't been fun I'd think myself slightly mad to have put this much effort into such an investigation, the results of which were already known by some, and won't be believed by others
I still can't quite decide how much the little differences make, and I'm sure different differences will matter to different folk. What I would say to someone such as yourself is that it is worth having a listen to hear and dismiss, or otherwise, these differences before parting with your cash.
PhilCTTE
Senior mumbler
Ian in the last session I attended at Steven Toys I heard a difference in every change of dac. And easily heard the veil the Sonos put over the music. I'm glad you've now heard it as well.
It's an effort to do these sessions but well worth it in my view. An opportunity to hear different pieces of kit in your own home.
You do get to a point where the differences are small and tiredness sets in, which makes the task harder. Sometimes just playing a few tunes drinking a beer and chatting and relaxing helps. Rather than having to listen to that same track for the 'umpteenth' time under pressured conditions.
Also when someone else in the group points out a passage of music that sounds different to them it challenges your thought process. Steven certainly had this ability and yes they were very slight nuances, but when you start getting a decent system together it can really add up.
The Mirus Dac showed a clean pair of heals in the last bake off in my view. But as you rightly point out was it that much better than the fusion MDAC to justify the extra few K?????
Having just splashed out a few K more than the Mirus on a set of Martin Logan Summit X speakers I can honestly say the differences are the biggest I've experienced in changing equipment and my last set of speakers weren't cheap. But we all know this, speakers first
As you've been bowled over with your ATC's if you do get the opportunity to head over to Worcester you are more than welcomto have a listen
It's an effort to do these sessions but well worth it in my view. An opportunity to hear different pieces of kit in your own home.
You do get to a point where the differences are small and tiredness sets in, which makes the task harder. Sometimes just playing a few tunes drinking a beer and chatting and relaxing helps. Rather than having to listen to that same track for the 'umpteenth' time under pressured conditions.
Also when someone else in the group points out a passage of music that sounds different to them it challenges your thought process. Steven certainly had this ability and yes they were very slight nuances, but when you start getting a decent system together it can really add up.
The Mirus Dac showed a clean pair of heals in the last bake off in my view. But as you rightly point out was it that much better than the fusion MDAC to justify the extra few K?????
Having just splashed out a few K more than the Mirus on a set of Martin Logan Summit X speakers I can honestly say the differences are the biggest I've experienced in changing equipment and my last set of speakers weren't cheap. But we all know this, speakers first
As you've been bowled over with your ATC's if you do get the opportunity to head over to Worcester you are more than welcomto have a listen
Ciunas Audio
Trade: Ciunas Audio
Hi Ian,
What you experienced was that so-called trained listeners (knowing what distortions sound like) is crucial to any form of listening - sighted or blind - if such differences are to be perceived. We only perceive in detail what we focus on & we can only focus on one thing in the soundfield at a time (eve though we are aware of the surrounding soundfield).
So can you describe the your perception of the differences in sound between the Sonos & the Pyxis? What if another Andrew came along & showed you other differences between the two? DO you think you have the full picture of the differences between them?
One thing I'd be interested in is your longer term listening impressions between the Sonos & Pyxis & if you begin to notice more differences than the blind A/B reveals or if those differences become more important to your listening enjoyment?
What you experienced was that so-called trained listeners (knowing what distortions sound like) is crucial to any form of listening - sighted or blind - if such differences are to be perceived. We only perceive in detail what we focus on & we can only focus on one thing in the soundfield at a time (eve though we are aware of the surrounding soundfield).
So can you describe the your perception of the differences in sound between the Sonos & the Pyxis? What if another Andrew came along & showed you other differences between the two? DO you think you have the full picture of the differences between them?
One thing I'd be interested in is your longer term listening impressions between the Sonos & Pyxis & if you begin to notice more differences than the blind A/B reveals or if those differences become more important to your listening enjoyment?
AndrewR
pfm Member
Hi all,
Just a quick message to add some more details about the proceedings.
The aim was not to trick the listener, but the assess consistent identification of the correct DAC. The sighted section aimed to accustom ourselves to the sonic characteristics of the Sonos and Pyxis DAC.
After a few tracks on each, we then conducted the blind test. We were careful not to allow any clues during the switching process. The preamp had switching relays that emitted a clicking sound - so not to give any auditory clues whether the source input was changed or not, we would always click the input selector several times even if selecting the same source.
A tea-towel was laid front-to-back over the head to shield the eyes, not over the ears. Tea towels were also used to cover the input selector and CD transport (so no clues can be seen, like an elapsing time).
The test subject had remote control of the volume to ensure the source played at the listener's preferred volume.
Scores were for correct identification of the DACs. 4/4 for me, 2/2 for Ian and 3/4 for Steven Toy. Note that Steven was sitting in the adjacent room while the test was going on. Overall I would say this was far from a null result.
Test track - Nitin Sawhney's Nadia.
Andrew
Just a quick message to add some more details about the proceedings.
The aim was not to trick the listener, but the assess consistent identification of the correct DAC. The sighted section aimed to accustom ourselves to the sonic characteristics of the Sonos and Pyxis DAC.
After a few tracks on each, we then conducted the blind test. We were careful not to allow any clues during the switching process. The preamp had switching relays that emitted a clicking sound - so not to give any auditory clues whether the source input was changed or not, we would always click the input selector several times even if selecting the same source.
A tea-towel was laid front-to-back over the head to shield the eyes, not over the ears. Tea towels were also used to cover the input selector and CD transport (so no clues can be seen, like an elapsing time).
The test subject had remote control of the volume to ensure the source played at the listener's preferred volume.
Scores were for correct identification of the DACs. 4/4 for me, 2/2 for Ian and 3/4 for Steven Toy. Note that Steven was sitting in the adjacent room while the test was going on. Overall I would say this was far from a null result.
Test track - Nitin Sawhney's Nadia.
Andrew
Julf
Facts are our friends
Couldn't you just count the number of clicks?
Julf
Facts are our friends
OK - I guess telling if it is an odd or even number of clicks (all you really need to know) is easier than actually accurately counting the clicks, but not that it really matters.
whatsnext
Naimless
Thanks Joe.
If it hadn't been fun I'd think myself slightly mad to have put this much effort into such an investigation, the results of which were already known by some, and won't be believed by others
I still can't quite decide how much the little differences make, and I'm sure different differences will matter to different folk. What I would say to someone such as yourself is that it is worth having a listen to hear and dismiss, or otherwise, these differences before parting with your cash.
Brilliant, thanks for doing it and sharing, with others present, the findings of the day. Other attendees will add their thoughts no doubt.
There is no danger of me ever attending or hosting a bakeoff or informal comparison but someone who isn't an aspirant expert or one of those who have developed an expertise are often overlooked. Joe blogs listeners do not need to be taught how to listen, they aren't training for a job as a quality assurance evaluator, HiFi reviewer of respected opinion, salesman distinguishing different products to advise the highly discerning.
Whatever you do don't become a discerner of minutiae, enjoy your music through what seems to me to be an incredibly good system, though pants to others.
Show Biz Kids, Steely Dan
Whaleblue
Southbound
Vocals. On the Sonos they were just slightly less natural (Andrew and Steve called the sound grainy, but that's too 'digital' speak for my liking
), having an in your face quality that wasn't there via the Pyxis.
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
Indeed, but if Joe Bloggs is going to make pronouncements on the internet, that such-and-such doesn't make a difference, or that any differences are inaudible, then it behoves him to walk a little way in the shoes of those who believe differently. If he is incapable of the sort of discriminating listening we're talking about here, then he has little of value to contribute.
Being able to discern minutiae doesn't preclude enjoying one's music, I agree that being hyper critical when not required would get in the way and become tiresome, happily it is a learned skill which is quite easily turned off when not required.