pure sound
Trade: manufacturer/distributor
It appears now that you've been making ludicrous claims about hearing exactly what's on your CD's (give or take 3% distortion of course)
Cyclic debates and moderation Part II
- Thread starter Tenson
- Start date
It appears now that you've been making ludicrous claims about hearing exactly what's on your CD's (give or take 3% distortion of course)
Robert
Tapehead
Fair points, but you have to relate the specs to the task.
Manufacturers produce resistors for use a wide array of circuits besides audio, and some specs are relevant to those applications while not to audio.
At the matching impedances seen around audio attenuators there is only one specification of concern, and that's the tolerance.
If you use 10% tolerance parts you might get some channel imbalance.
The other factors aren't going to change performance anywhere near audio frequencies.
You might also want to consider resistor inductance for some critical applications, but again not for an attenuator.
sergeauckland
pfm Member
It appears now that you've been making ludicrous claims about hearing exactly what's on your CD's (give or take 3% distortion of course)
I've NEVER claimed to hear exactly what's on the CD at the loudspeaker outputs, only that what goes into the loudspeaker inputs should be as close to an exact replica of the information on the CD. You know that, as you seem to have read my posts sufficiently closely.
As to the 3% distortion, or any amount of loudspeaker distortion, that's what loudspeakers do. That's why they're not transparent. Mine, nor anyone elses. Mine are not exceptional in any way.
S.
pure sound
Trade: manufacturer/distributor
Trouble is you don't listen to what goes into your speakers only what comes out. ie just like everyone else.
Tony L
Administrator
What are your formal electronic qualifications? What audio or music kit have you designed, built and brought to market? What is your musical experience? What instruments can you play? What studio or recording experience do you have? Any other experience or qualifications you'd care to cite as relevant to how / why you apparently know so much more than people who may well have done some / many / all of these things? I don't mind the discussion at all, it's the arrogance and ego that needs tempering.
sergeauckland
pfm Member
If I need to prove my credentials before I can comment on posts here, then I ask the same courtesy of others making posts. What are their qualifications for claiming cables sound different or resistive attenuators sound different?
Or is it OK to make unsubstantiated claims, but not to refute them?
S.
Robert
Tapehead
Last edited by a moderator:
Tony L
Administrator
You are the one speaking in absolutes and attempting to "correct" others from a distance with no direct view of the items in question. All most folk here tend to be doing is relaying their own direct personal experience, e.g. discussing a component change in a preamp or whatever. Effectively it boils down to someone relaying direct empirical evidence vs someone regurgitating a possibly partially-digested text-book. As such I'm curious as to your qualifications and practical experience, e.g. if you are a particle physicist working at CERN I might respect your opinion slightly more than had you just swiftly read the back cover of Electronics For Dummies at Waterstones. If you've actually designed credible and well-respected audio kit (e.g. as Guy, Simon and others have) I'll probably respect your opinion even more.
I'm not sure Serge should be berated quite so hard: he's generally argued his case cogently without resorting to abusive or inflammatory language.
However, I do think there should be something like censorship in the forum of placing limits on thread-crapping, if only in the spirit of keeping the forum tidy and on-topic. A significant chunk of all audio forums discusses differences between stuff. Everyone involved in such discussions is aware that some people believe these topics are pointless.
But for them to march into a progressive chat waving banners and shouting insults - that everyone in the room is a crazy fool - is not the kind of behaviour that makes the forum a good place. There are places on the web (ie, Hydrogen Audio) where that body of opinion can gather and stagnate because everything was apparently perfected in the 1950s.
The core topics of of perception, measurement, engineering, bias and foo have been thrashed hard recently in dedicated threads: surely enough has been said without the debate spilling over into otherwise interesting threads where people are simple sharing their experiences? Isn't that a primary purpose of a forum?
However, I do think there should be something like censorship in the forum of placing limits on thread-crapping, if only in the spirit of keeping the forum tidy and on-topic. A significant chunk of all audio forums discusses differences between stuff. Everyone involved in such discussions is aware that some people believe these topics are pointless.
But for them to march into a progressive chat waving banners and shouting insults - that everyone in the room is a crazy fool - is not the kind of behaviour that makes the forum a good place. There are places on the web (ie, Hydrogen Audio) where that body of opinion can gather and stagnate because everything was apparently perfected in the 1950s.
The core topics of of perception, measurement, engineering, bias and foo have been thrashed hard recently in dedicated threads: surely enough has been said without the debate spilling over into otherwise interesting threads where people are simple sharing their experiences? Isn't that a primary purpose of a forum?
Robert
Tapehead
I agree with you re Serge, he makes his points while completely avoiding the froth and bad tempered antics on display from some.
On your last point I don't agree at all.
The discussion topic purportedly at the heart of this thread isn't spilling over into the vast majority of other threads. See for yourself - just go and review the last 50 most active threads and they are generally perfectly fine discussions of the type you'd expect to see.
Tony,
With all due respect, I have an undergrad degree in comp sci and a diploma in electronics engineering, plus 35 years in the business and 40 as an audiophile and I can assure you Serge is the real deal.
Louballoo
Cereal Killer
432
Purité Audio
Trade: Purite Audio
Yes Serge certainly knows his onions, informed counterpoint to a discussion is hardly thread crapping, he is a tremendous addition to PFM.
Keith.
Keith.
Tony L
Administrator
Perhaps my posts come across heavier than I intended, and if so I apologise. My aim is certainly not to force Serge (or anyone else) off the site, I rather like him to be honest, but when I have users walking to the exit (John is not the first here) then I feel I need to at least highlight that there is an issue, and point out that I have zero respect for fundamentalism / absolutism of any colour. I care about science far too much for that - I subscribe to the 'if you think you fully understand something you probably haven't researched it well enough yet' school in most things, and I suspect there is much to be learnt / discovered when it comes to audio.
Cereal Killer
432
Science isn't fact or absolute, it's about development and exploration.
Cereal Killer
432
No need to apologise, It's all getting rather tedious hearing the same old same old, where’s the proof bollox. The when asked to prove evidence himself he quietly slopes off or ignores the request?
It’s friggin boring and rather patronising to be honest.....
Purité Audio
Trade: Purite Audio
Serge is only trying to undo thirty years of marketing BS and advertorial journalism, simply trying to reintroduce some rigour ,I don't always agree with him though!
Keith.
Keith.
Robert
Tapehead
It also enables problems and tasks to be solved. The science required to adequately describe the function of audio systems isn't quite the same as required to say investigate a cure for alzheimers.
Science is certainly fully capable of telling us how a resistor works, and predict with 100% accuracy how it will interface with a circuit.
Some things are fully understood, some need a bit more effort while on some other matters science is only scratching the surface.
I suspect it's the complete contempt shown by some for existing scientific work that has fully researched and solved certain problems (namely the basics required for audio) that would irk Serge and others.
Cereal Killer
432
Why is that so important, do you think everyone on here are numpties or something? I'm sure there's more people who lurk on PFM who know far more, but don’t feel the need to reiterate the same crap again and again.. It’s patronising and boring. No one needs saving, we are all adults and individuals - we don’t need assimilation. No ones asked for the preacher.