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Cartridge Output Voltage vs. Phono Input Sensitivity Variance Tolerance

P

Pault73

pfm Member
I'm building out a Garrard 301/ SME 3012 ii set up.

The consensus recommended cartridges typically seem to be the Denon DL103 (output 0.3mV), Denon DL103R (output 0.25mv) or an Ortofon (something like a classic G at 0.2mV)

For the short term and to prioritise spend, I'd like to try to use my built-in phono on my Luxman SQ-N150 (0.33mv). Now the risk is without an additional set-up I get hum and low noise.

But how close are the tolerances, would an output from the DL103 at 0.3mV really affect the phono at 0.33mv?

Or should I be looking at different cartridges which are more than 0.33mv? What would people recommend?

Thank you
Paul
 
I'd question the suitability of the Denons to the 3012. My 3012 back in the late sixties was designed with MMs in mind (high compliance) and had a lowish eff. mass. Don't know about mk. 2 though. Not entirely sure about the Denons but thought they were low compliance. Anyway, almost anything in anything will work to a degree. 401/3012/V15 (plus ubiquitous Dustbug). ! Brings back memories of my student days.
 
Mike Reed said:
I'd question the suitability of the Denons to the 3012. My 3012 back in the late sixties was designed with MMs in mind (high compliance) and had a lowish eff. mass. Don't know about mk. 2 though. Not entirely sure about the Denons but thought they were low compliance. Anyway, almost anything in anything will work to a degree. 401/3012/V15 (plus ubiquitous Dustbug). ! Brings back memories of my student days.
Click to expand...
If the 3012 is a high mass arm, my understanding is it should suit a low compliance cartridge eg the denon at 0.3?
 
Pault73 said:
If the 3012 is a high mass arm, my understanding is it should suit a low compliance cartridge eg the denon at 0.3?
Click to expand...
Bit of confusion here, possibly? The 3012, at least the first and I suspect others, were low mass arms. Even the highly acclaimed 9" Five was only 11 grams, although it was versatile with many cart. compliance requirements. Output has no correlation with arm mass, which is a measure to relate to a cart's compliance in order to effect synergy between arm and cart.

I thought the Denons, being l.o. MC, would be low compliance but maybe not as one or two l.o. MCs are low medium compliance.
 
Pault73 said:
I'm building out a Garrard 301/ SME 3012 ii set up.

The consensus recommended cartridges typically seem to be the Denon DL103 (output 0.3mV), Denon DL103R (output 0.25mv) or an Ortofon (something like a classic G at 0.2mV)

For the short term and to prioritise spend, I'd like to try to use my built-in phono on my Luxman SQ-N150 (0.33mv). Now the risk is without an additional set-up I get hum and low noise.

But how close are the tolerances, would an output from the DL103 at 0.3mV really affect the phono at 0.33mv?

Or should I be looking at different cartridges which are more than 0.33mv? What would people recommend?

Thank you
Paul
Click to expand...
No problem with what you are doing as the cartridges should be OK for use in the Luxman MC input. If you have the stainless steel (higher mass) version of the 3012, as in the 3012-R then go for the SPU Classic GM E. It is significantly better than any 103. It will also be very much quieter in the grooves too.
 
Pault73 said:
If the 3012 is a high mass arm, my understanding is it should suit a low compliance cartridge eg the denon at 0.3?
Click to expand...
Think you’re confusing Compliance with Output Voltage.

The compliance of a cartridge is a measure of the springiness of the suspension, with high-compliance meaning a soft suspension and low-compliance meaning a stiff suspension. It is important to match the compliance of the cartridge to the effective mass of the tonearm that will accommodate the cartridge.

A cartridge produces a very weak electrical signal, which is usually measured in milli-Volts (mV). A Moving Magnet (MM) or Moving Iron (MI) cartridge typically produces a maximum output of 5mV, although figures vary from about 2.5mV to more than 7mV (higher outputs being common for DJ cartridges). A Moving Coil (MC) cartridge produces a much lower output, typically around 0.5mV. In all cases, the signal must be boosted by a phono-stage before it is passed to the amplifier for main amplification.
 
SME 3012 II is 14g eff. mass with the standard headshell. So high-ish mass compared to modern arms that usually fall between 9-11g
(medium mass). Nothing truly heavy like Fidelity Research FR64/66 (I believe the 9" is something like 30-35g?).

 
Pault73 said:
If the 3012 is a high mass arm, my understanding is it should suit a low compliance cartridge eg the denon at 0.3?
Click to expand...
There are 4 versions of the 3012 tonearm. The original 3012 from the 1950s, the 3012 mark II low mass version, the 3012-R designed to work with low compliance MC cartridges and the 3012-GTA which was a very low volume version made for me to use with the higher spec SPUs (SPU Gold Reference, Silver Meister, SPU Royal and all the SPU Anniversary models) in the late 1990s.

The original 3012 was designed to work with the Ortofon SPU which had a low compliance and was mostly made of Stainless Steel so it had a mass that would work with the 30+ grams of the original SPU with piggy back MC transformers fitted.

Then came the craze for running high compliance cartridges like the Shure V15 in the 1960s running at tracking forces from 0.5 grams to about 1.5 grams, so the 3012 II was introduced to work with these lightweight high compliance cartridges. That meant making the tonearm match the compliance of the MM cartridges so these along with the 3009 II were made of aluminium so are not really suitable for use with low compliance MC cartridges, unless of course the math dictates the use.

In Japan, they continued the use of the heavy weight 12" SME (3012) in stainless steel and they used this with the Ortofon SPU, EMT TSD cartridges etc. In the early 1990s SME offered these tonearms known as the 3012-R, R meaning revised for use with low compliance cartridges like the current SPU's including the higher spec models etc, to the UK and European markets. The 3012-R was discontinued sometime in the 2000's and replaced with the M2-12R tonearm. This is also an excellent tonearm and works extremely well with the higher spec SPU's.

Best to check the mass of your 3012 to see if it will be suitable for use with the lower compliance MC cartridges, as it is not a given...
 
Amber Audio said:
A Moving Magnet (MM) or Moving Iron (MI) cartridge typically produces a maximum output of 5mV, although figures vary from about 2.5mV to more than 7mV (higher outputs being common for DJ cartridges).
Click to expand...

I'm a bit wary of that description. It is probably assuming the standard reference level without saying so. Simpliies, yes, the explanation - but the ability to track, and the level of the 'cut' also can matter. Alas, people seem not to always report the max input a 'disc' input can cope with OK, which doesn't help, either. I've seen some discs give output up to +18dB(RIAA)!!
 
Don't forget about loading , the standard DL103 has unique requirements . It's internal resistance of 40ohms means it likes to see about a 400 ohm load .
 
early said:
Don't forget about loading , the standard DL103 has unique requirements . It's internal resistance of 40ohms means it comes to see about a 400 ohm load .
Click to expand...
Loading is only relevant when using a solid state phono stage. With valve/tube phono stages it is all about getting the correct amount of gain for low noise.

I assume you mean if you use a 1:10 step up transformer the 40 ohms impedance from the cartridge will see about 470 ohms from the phono stage? There is nothing wrong with that. Ten times the cartridge impedance should be OK.
 
krenzler said:
I still wouldn't call the 3012 MkII at 14g mass lightweight even though it was alu instead of steel.

I mean SME Series III was the arm for the high compliance (25cu+) MM's surely.
Click to expand...
I'm puzzled, having read G.T.'s post above. I assumed my 3012 was a mk 2, bought in 1970 with a V15 was lower in eff. mass than 14g. Was it a mark 3 instead (not that I've heard of a mk.3) It had the perforated headshell, presumably to minimise mass.
 
Not called 3009 as some mistakenly do - just SME Series III. There's also a slightly simplified IIIs variant and different armtubes (like titanium).

zstereo.co.uk

SME Series III

SME’s name precedes the brand itself. Everyone in the audiophile world knows it’s a superb company, with a fantastic heritage behind it. The quality of any SME product is assured, and it has never …
zstereo.co.uk zstereo.co.uk
 
GT said:
Loading is only relevant when using a solid state phono stage. With valve/tube phono stages it is all about getting the correct amount of gain for low noise.

I assume you mean if you use a 1:10 step up transformer the 40 ohms impedance from the cartridge will see about 470 ohms from the phono stage? There is nothing wrong with that. Ten times the cartridge impedance should be OK.
Click to expand...

Not sure that is clear/accurate.

A *voltage* step up of 1:10 means an *impedance" step up of 1:100 as presented to the amp. Reverse that for what gets presented to the cart.

Follows from Energy Conservation. In practice you need to know both the cart's output impedance and the amp's input impedance to work out the details. But if we assume an amp with, say, a 47k input impedance and sensitivity of 5mV then using a a 1:10 perfect step-up transformer will present a loading of 470 Ohms with a sensitivity of 0.5mV to the cart.
 
I would have thought a SME 3012 II is nigh ideal for a DL-103.

A few of us locally have been using that combo for years now with great personal enjoyment.

P.S. A special treat is the 110th anniversay edition, the DL-A110, which comes with a bespoke headshell.
 
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