At last... (Audiolab) - part II

[norriemal]

One thing I have noticed is that with CDQ and power amp on I have silence but when I switch off the CDQ I get an earth type hum which is quite loud. Without the CDQ connected the power amp is silent.

It is a problem because I keep the power amp switched on. I was not intending to leave the CDQ on when not in use.

 

[loris.p]

John and Dominik,
I guess it would be a nice/useful thing to open a Q&A or a FAQ section in the audiolab page........

 

[aloft]

Could someone comment on the type of streaming devices you use in conjunction with your new 8200 series DAC and how they're connected? Thanks!

 

[Edward]

First post on PFM as mostly on AVForums and the Wigwam. Had a CDQ on pre-order for over a month after a demo of the 8200CD at the Frank Harvey open day. Been reading this thread with great interest and went through the extreme obsession, patient waiting, and then panic stage of the last few days like a lot of people I guess. Now I've had first hand experience of two units I think Technobear has hit the nail on the head re: the technical side; and the other positive posters are dead right about the high quality of this product.

Worried about the hiss issue and generally about using the CDQ as a straight up CDP and DAC with my integrated amp while I sort my system out, I went down to my dealer's to listen to their demo model today (my unit was also ready to collect). I've now listened to the CDQ through two integrated amps and two sets of speakers. Frankly, the sound quality is superb and I have no issue whatsoever with hiss. I am a rather perfectionistic vinyl enthusiast, on the look our for the slightest ground loop, RFI problem. or reason to loose confidence in a product. This is what the expense and precariousness of vinyl obsession does to you. As a number of posters are now coming out and saying, you have to put your ear right next to the speaker and actually try and hear the hiss. In fact, in an experiment I just conducted with my XTZ amp, there was absolutely no different between three inputs only one of which is connected to the CDQ. Not that I'm saying that the problem might there in some systems, but I think this issue is being blown way out of proportion. Well, that's just my opinion

As for my first impressions, I find the sound of the CDQ very musical; more detailed than I'm used too - you hear things from the recording, studio noises, that I've not heard before; the dynamic range is excellent - quiet passages are exactly that, and loud passages are loud; the sound is non-fatiguing; the stereo image is rock solid; and, finally, there is a coherence about the music that is very appealing. So far I have listened mainly to female vocal that I know well on CD (Suzanne Vega; Tori Amos; Dido) and the CDQ is very convincing for this genre. I've also dabbled with the CDQ converting the digital signal of my Sonos with (i) spotify premium at 320kps and (ii) my music archive from a NAS encoded in apple lossless (eg 800-1000 kps). Very acceptable results with both, but so far CD trounces both in overall coherence and listening pleasure.

As another poster has said, I'm not wild about the display, which is not so bright and small (it can be defeated, which is the best way forward) and I've not had any luck with the CD text or SDM modulator mode yet). The tray loader is fine as far as I'm concerned; the machine is quite responsive; and the remote has a very nice feel to it even if the buttons are not all intuitively placed or labelled. I went for silver to match my system, though I think maybe black is the natural colour for the unit. Assuming it warms up with use, though even as it was out of the box, I'll be well up for one of the DACs when they come out....

Systems used

(1) Sonos ZP90>8200CDQ>XTZ A100D3>Opera Duetto (Chord Carnival silver screen; Van Den Hull D102 III cable)

(2) 8200CDQ>Audio Analogue Puccini SE>Proac Studio 115 (Chord carnival silver screen; Chord Crimson Plus cable)

 

[technobear]

Could someone comment on the type of streaming devices you use in conjunction with your new 8200 series DAC and how they're connected? Thanks!

Que?

 

[aloft]

Technobear, I know the Audiolab 8200 DACs will most likely convert any signal from any streaming device with a digital output. What I am interested in is reading first-hand experiences of early adopters, including which streaming devices they used, and how it stacks up against CD playback. Pretty much along the lines of Edward's post. I don't think there haven't been any reports yet, but maybe I am mistaken.

 

[traf]

I'm currently using MacMini->8m toslink->CDQ, although for the first time in ages I've actually loaded a CD into a CD player!

No data transmission problems to date over quite a long (and cheap) optical cable, and I'm hard pushed to identify any difference between HDD and CD sourced data (I use Apple lossless through iTunes/Frontrow).

Could someone comment on the type of streaming devices you use in conjunction with your new 8200 series DAC and how they're connected? Thanks!

 

[TimR]

Technobear, I know the Audiolab 8200 DACs will most likely convert any signal from any streaming device with a digital output. What I am interested in is reading first-hand experiences of early adopters, including which streaming devices they used, and how it stacks up against CD playback. Pretty much along the lines of Edward's post. I don't think there haven't been any reports yet, but maybe I am mistaken.

I'm using a squeezebox connected via coax. Sounds good.... until you compare it to a CD of the same material. The improvement is very clear to hear. Slightly disappointed by this, as I was expecting it to be a closer run thing. Not too sure of the reason why it isn't, but for now the CDs will have to stay out. I'd also be interested to hear other people's experience with this.
I've yet to get round to trying the async USB from a PC, by the way.

 

[TimR]

Not that I'm saying that the problem might there in some systems, but I think this issue is being blown way out of proportion. Well, that's just my opinion

I agree that there seems to be some paranoia about this! I'm one of the few who do have a "real" problem. I can say this for certain now because I took my CDQ down to my dealer yesterday and we tried it using the same model amp but with different speakers. On his system, I was struggling to hear the hiss from even 0.5M feet away - which would be completely acceptable to me - and seems to be what people are commonly experiencing. They should stop worrying, it is a non-issue! In my system at home, however, I can hear it from my sofa which is 2-3 metres away. Every visitor I have asked for an opinion has agreed - and these are not hi fi buffs. It might not always be immediately apparent, but it's amazing how quiet the room suddenly becomes when I switch over to analogue. This was certainly not my experience in the demo room, so I could only conclude that my CDQ at least does not have a fault - as suspected, the problem lies somewhere else in my system. I did notice that my amp has serial no. 0000008, so I'm wondering if it was an early model and the design has been evolved since then (less sensitive?)

 

[JohnW]

Hi Everyone,

Sorry - I've not "fled" from the Forum I've just been crazy busy these past few days trying to make space for my "unplanned" trip to the UK next week - it's looking like the later part of the week.

I have to leave very early in the morning for 2 day's of meetings in Germany (7 hours drive each way) - then return to CZ for flight to UK...

Most likely post next once I'm in the UK - so Pls. forgive my absence until then

Norrie I have a solution for your Hum issue when the CDQ is powered-off. If you hold on until next week. TimR - might also have an idea why you might be having your issues - we will find out this week...

Pls. forgive the lack of answers until later in the week.

Miki Vee - I hope you where able to collect your unit - and have better luck!!

John

 

[Edward]

I agree that there seems to be some paranoia about this! I'm one of the few who do have a "real" problem. I can say this for certain now because I took my CDQ down to my dealer yesterday and we tried it using the same model amp but with different speakers. On his system, I was struggling to hear the hiss from even 0.5M feet away - which would be completely acceptable to me - and seems to be what people are commonly experiencing. They should stop worrying, it is a non-issue! In my system at home, however, I can hear it from my sofa which is 2-3 metres away. Every visitor I have asked for an opinion has agreed - and these are not hi fi buffs. It might not always be immediately apparent, but it's amazing how quiet the room suddenly becomes when I switch over to analogue. This was certainly not my experience in the demo room, so I could only conclude that my CDQ at least does not have a fault - as suspected, the problem lies somewhere else in my system. I did notice that my amp has serial no. 0000008, so I'm wondering if it was an early model and the design has been evolved since then (less sensitive?)

Fair play and bad luck. But I hope still you can get it sorted. My S/N is SO124, for info. You did everything right IMO. It was good that you went to the dealer to check on a demo machine (I did the same). I think it's totally healthy for anyone spending 800 quid+ on a CD player to get a dealer demo, preferably with their own amplification. At that point, I guess you have a choice. Either get a refund (very reasonable as the designers did recommend 0db dgital pre-amp would be equivalent to 8200CD) or stick with it and play around with amplification and speakers. Or, of course, you could request a replacement (eg swap your unit for the dealer's demo machine, assuming it's minty and in the right colour). I have had such horrible, and stressful, experiences with turntable-based systems that I feel your pain. You have to trust your own judgement; and sometimes online forums only make it worse as you have to see through the cacophony of voices, of which mine is only one minor example.

Another poster asked about streaming. I have Swedish Radio playing all night through a ZP90 zoneplayer through the 8200CDQ. This is mainly to run the DAC in. Initial, post-pub, experience was positive. It was listenable and natural sound. But bear in mind that you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear: most internet radio is 96kbps if you're lucky; spotify premium is 320kbps if you change your preference to 'high bit rate' (which many subscribers forget to do!); and apple lossless varies between 800-1000 kbps. This is not going to sound as good as a good HDCD or SACD or 96/24 stream or DVD Audio. But my experience so far is that the CDQ converts mediocre streams in a pain-free way; and the practicality is good: just select Coax1/Optical1 in and it locks onto the Sonos stream without difficulty. One of the things that I really like about the CDQ/CD is that they have four separate inputs for coax and optical and an extra for USB. Many DACs I have auditioned bizarrely ration you to one USB, one Coax and one optical (eg Arcam rDac) and others are even worse (eg the excellent, but limited, vDac).

 

[Edward]

I'm using a squeezebox connected via coax. Sounds good.... until you compare it to a CD of the same material. The improvement is very clear to hear. Slightly disappointed by this, as I was expecting it to be a closer run thing. Not too sure of the reason why it isn't, but for now the CDs will have to stay out. I'd also be interested to hear other people's experience with this.
I've yet to get round to trying the async USB from a PC, by the way.

Yes, I have experienced the same thing (although, only one day in) but I see it in a more positive light. the squeezebox, or Sonos, may create bit perfect copies of CDs (or very close) but the 'zone player' transports typically have much higher jitter than good CD players. They also introduce a more complicated signal path than a dedicated CDP/DAC unit. So I find it reassuring rather than disappointing that CDs sound noticeably better on the CDQ than their 'lossless' streamed counterparts via Sonos/Squeezebox.

 

[domho7]

praise for the CDQ! I have already commented on the CDQ in terms of cd/pre/filters etc so not a word about sound quality (its superb) in this post ;-)
I am in the middle of changing/upgrading my system and I just sold off my center and front speakers tonight and geeting rid of my AVR tomorrow. I am considering to go back to a simple but higher quality 2-channel set-up, so just now i disconnected the AVR, moved my surround back speakers upfront as temporary solution until my new speakers arrive in 4 weeks.
so I am left with the following sources all connected directly to the CDQ:
cable/tv box via coax, blueray via coax, apple tv via toslink
CDQ connected to poweramp.
now this is a simple setup and I have the feeling that I can live quite happily without 7.1 surround and all the extra equipment and cabling that follows.. will try it out for a couple of weeks and maybe stay with 2-channel until I one day can make a proper cinema room with projector etc.
great flexibility on the CDQ!!

Great!!! I am waiting for local stores to stock the CDQ!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[aloft]

Thanks for posting your experiences with streaming devices. The slight loss in SQ between original CD and lossless files played back through the same DAC is mentioned often, e.g. by Fremer in his review of the DCS Debussy.

 

[technobear]

So far I have only used the USB and optical inputs - USB for music and optical for TV.

I am running the unit in 24/7 for 200 hours and then I will do some comparisons of CD vs. USB and also DVD-A (I have an Arcam DV135) against CD and USB.

After 75 hours or so the sound is developing nicely. I am starting to hear now why this machine has been described as 'analogue sounding'. It certainly wasn't evident on day one. Four more days to go before critical analysis can begin...

 

[dane]

I just did the XLR coversion on my Rotel RB1572 power amp as mentioned earlier in this thread, and recommended by JW. Used some old Audioquest Ruby X3 rca interconnects which has 3 solid cores.
Result - the hiss which wasnt a great problem for me in the first place running relative low gain amp (abt 27db) and 86db speakers, is greatly reduced.
I am using my rear speakers (Dynaudio 42sat) as front until my new main speakers arrive, so critical listening is on hold for another 4 weeks..

I think the hiss situation is as follows:
Only applies if you run the CDQ in digital pre mode direct into a power amp.
The higher gain amp and more effective speakers you have, the bigger the issue is.

Curious to hear what volume settings the guys with very noticeable hiss have for normal and loud listening level. I ran upto about -10 on the volume (loud) with my old main speakers via rca. and around -15 to -20 for normal listening level. My theory is that the guys with very noticeable hiss is running with the volume somewhat lower due to higher gain amp and/or more effective speakers.

 

[dane]

I think I should say 'eliminated' rather than 'greatly reduced' as I literally have to put my ear on the tweeter to hear any hiss now.
I may be upgrading my power amp to something with adjustable gain in the future and if I for example can set a power amp to -12db gain, I can run the CDQ closer to '0' on the volume which should be ideal as per dominik's confirmation.

 

[reverendo]

So far I have only used the USB and optical inputs - USB for music and optical for TV.

I am running the unit in 24/7 for 200 hours and then I will do some comparisons of CD vs. USB and also DVD-A (I have an Arcam DV135) against CD and USB.

After 75 hours or so the sound is developing nicely. I am starting to hear now why this machine has been described as 'analogue sounding'. It certainly wasn't evident on day one. Four more days to go before critical analysis can begin...

Chris,
very interested in your findings. Will you be using a stoch USB cable or will go for a higher quality one?
best regards
André

 

[TimR]

Curious to hear what volume settings the guys with very noticeable hiss have for normal and loud listening level. I ran upto about -10 on the volume (loud) with my old main speakers via rca. and around -15 to -20 for normal listening level. My theory is that the guys with very noticeable hiss is running with the volume somewhat lower due to higher gain amp and/or more effective speakers.

Dane, I think you are spot on. I'm listening at between -30 to -20 (-20 being probably loud enough to upset my neighours !)


Edit:
I'm currently listening at -35. Testing with KC and the sunshine band - "that's the way I like it" is giving me a reading of around 65dBC on my sound meter from my sofa.

 

[TimR]

Either get a refund (very reasonable as the designers did recommend 0db dgital pre-amp would be equivalent to 8200CD) or stick with it and play around with amplification and speakers. Or, of course, you could request a replacement

Hi Edward, I think I've given the impression that I'm not happy with the CDQ. To set the record straight, this is absolutely not the case! I'm very very impressed with it dispite this slight annoyance. Just today I switched to using it as the pre-amp for my rega p3 turntable (previously connected to my Audiolab 8000AP amp), and gained yet another improvement in SQ... I guess I'm benefitting from John's class A amp.

Yes, I have experienced the same thing (although, only one day in) but I see it in a more positive light. the squeezebox, or Sonos, may create bit perfect copies of CDs (or very close) but the 'zone player' transports typically have much higher jitter than good CD players. They also introduce a more complicated signal path than a dedicated CDP/DAC unit. So I find it reassuring rather than disappointing that CDs sound noticeably better on the CDQ than their 'lossless' streamed counterparts via Sonos/Squeezebox.

Very well put. I hadn't thought of it like that