About Networks...
- Thread starter Nigel S
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Amber Audio
This is the Day
Buy genuine Cisco SFP modules, eBay have them from £4. Third party is not guaranteed to work. Cables from £3 on eBay and Amazon.
There is documentation on the Cisco site listing the compatibility/model numbers for all their switches and modules. There are also blogs by IT geeks with info. Lots of variations abound so you need to marry up the Switch - SFP - Cable Types.
I’m using those white 2960-C with “Cisco GLC-SX-MM” modules with an OM3 LC to LC MM cable.
MM = Multimode
There is documentation on the Cisco site listing the compatibility/model numbers for all their switches and modules. There are also blogs by IT geeks with info. Lots of variations abound so you need to marry up the Switch - SFP - Cable Types.
I’m using those white 2960-C with “Cisco GLC-SX-MM” modules with an OM3 LC to LC MM cable.
MM = Multimode
Amber Audio
This is the Day
PM your address if a couple of these will work, I’ll post them to you for free, just stick a couple quid in a charity box.
chris geary
pfm Member
so sorry, but I cannot decode this whatsoever. Can one of you folks explain this to me in simpler terms, as if you were talking to a golden retriever?
I understand "galvanic isolation" e.g. having no electrical connection between the streamer box and the internet. So you are inserting an optical link somewhere in that chain.
So which device converts Cat6 to Optical? What do the SFP's do? Why a Cisco 2960? Interested but clearly not understanding the whole deal here....
I understand "galvanic isolation" e.g. having no electrical connection between the streamer box and the internet. So you are inserting an optical link somewhere in that chain.
So which device converts Cat6 to Optical? What do the SFP's do? Why a Cisco 2960? Interested but clearly not understanding the whole deal here....
rag987
pfm Member
You add 2 Cisco 2960 switches into the chain. They are connected together on the SFP port, using a module which converts the signal to optical, and a fibre cable. Hence the 2 switches are not electrically connected to each other using an Ethernet cable.
The first switch is connected to your router which supplies the ip address and lets the devices speak to each other or to the internet. If you are using e.g. a NAS for your media that is connected upstream of first switch. The second switch connects to your media server or renderer.
E.g. router <Ethernet cable> Cisco 1 + SFP <fiber cable> Cisco 2 + SFP <Ethernet cable> media streamer
Instead of
router <Ethernet cable> media streamer
The first switch is connected to your router which supplies the ip address and lets the devices speak to each other or to the internet. If you are using e.g. a NAS for your media that is connected upstream of first switch. The second switch connects to your media server or renderer.
E.g. router <Ethernet cable> Cisco 1 + SFP <fiber cable> Cisco 2 + SFP <Ethernet cable> media streamer
Instead of
router <Ethernet cable> media streamer
Amber Audio
This is the Day
Why the Cisco 2960?
It’s well built, has an onboard psu so no messing with a wall wart, ubiquitous in business - millions of the little bu****s out there and very cheap used compared to their RRP. The blue 2960 started to get mentioned on audio forums a while ago, especially Naim I recall, many reports simply adding one/replacing existing consumer grade switches improved SQ.
I work in IT and swap new models of various manufacturers switches in/out at home to try them umpteen times a year, I’ve never heard any difference in SQ between models. I decided to try the 2 switches/SFP modules/Fibre cable to satisfy my own curiosity as it seemed to me there was a “possibility” it might influence my streaming SQ and I’d at least be able to comment from the point of view of actual use rather than theory.
You also see media converters mooted, they work in a different way to sfp modules but the idea behind using them is the same.I’m not keen on media converters.
It’s well built, has an onboard psu so no messing with a wall wart, ubiquitous in business - millions of the little bu****s out there and very cheap used compared to their RRP. The blue 2960 started to get mentioned on audio forums a while ago, especially Naim I recall, many reports simply adding one/replacing existing consumer grade switches improved SQ.
I work in IT and swap new models of various manufacturers switches in/out at home to try them umpteen times a year, I’ve never heard any difference in SQ between models. I decided to try the 2 switches/SFP modules/Fibre cable to satisfy my own curiosity as it seemed to me there was a “possibility” it might influence my streaming SQ and I’d at least be able to comment from the point of view of actual use rather than theory.
You also see media converters mooted, they work in a different way to sfp modules but the idea behind using them is the same.I’m not keen on media converters.
intrigued by ADOT MC01 ,I've just come across this: https://hifiplus.com/articles/adot-mc01-kit-2-fibre-ethernet-conversion-kit/
quoting:
At a glance, this fibre conversion kit from Melco distributor ADMM looks like a tricky sell. There are numerous fibre to ethernet (media) converters on the market and most of them look like the ADOT MC01, except for one important detail; this one has four dipswitches at the ‘other’ end (the end you don’t see in most pictures) and these allow speed throttling down from the gigabit required for computer networks to 100Mbs, which is more than sufficient for audio signals. Fibre has a number of advantages on its own, but by slowing down the speed of operation ADOT adds another means of reducing noise… which usually means a reduction in perceived distortion in the eventual analogue signal.
according to what I stumbled across they comply with the above
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07MQ4LGGQ/?tag=pinkfishmedia-21
But I'm IT illiterate ,anyone willing to explain?
quoting:
At a glance, this fibre conversion kit from Melco distributor ADMM looks like a tricky sell. There are numerous fibre to ethernet (media) converters on the market and most of them look like the ADOT MC01, except for one important detail; this one has four dipswitches at the ‘other’ end (the end you don’t see in most pictures) and these allow speed throttling down from the gigabit required for computer networks to 100Mbs, which is more than sufficient for audio signals. Fibre has a number of advantages on its own, but by slowing down the speed of operation ADOT adds another means of reducing noise… which usually means a reduction in perceived distortion in the eventual analogue signal.
according to what I stumbled across they comply with the above
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07MQ4LGGQ/?tag=pinkfishmedia-21
But I'm IT illiterate ,anyone willing to explain?
This site contains affiliate links for which pink fish media may be compensated.
chris geary
pfm Member
OK, so looking at the routers on Ebay, they only have RJ45 jacks.
does that meant the SFP modules are the gizmos that convert ethernet to optical and then back to ethernet again? If so, then it all makes sense.
does that meant the SFP modules are the gizmos that convert ethernet to optical and then back to ethernet again? If so, then it all makes sense.
Darth Vader
From the Dark Side
The use of fibre inside our homes is unnecessary. Where it really scores is either in a very electrically noisy factory or connecting to outbuildings especially over long distance.
Fibre can support up to 2.5Gbps per wavelength i.e. a single laser and with higher tech devices such as DWDM up to 64 channels at 2.5Gbps each. And um noise was never a problem and the data all got through perfectly. This was multi-protocol stuff that I'll not even attempt to mention on pfm.
There is a lot of crap spouted on the Internet by people that have zero understanding. Even in the business! For example I installed one of the first DWDM service in the UK (for a top investment bank - Cazenove https://www.google.com/maps/place/1...b7eb00e86cb895e!8m2!3d51.5155556!4d-0.0883858) using BT who supplied the equipment and laid the fibre over many Km. They really got into a mess at the consumer premises as they hadn't a clue about multi-mode and single mode fibres that were required. I had to get my own engineers in to sort that mess out!
As for Ethernet switches making any difference to audio! LAN and WAN protocols will deliver your data perfectly intact. If your audio stuff is at all affected by 'noise' it is a crap design/build and needs to be replaced. Its amazing that the financial World works so well and that we can send and control vehicles on Mars and even further afield oh and remotely control fighter drones remotely if a simple Ethernet switch can make all that difference.
Cheers,
DV
Fibre can support up to 2.5Gbps per wavelength i.e. a single laser and with higher tech devices such as DWDM up to 64 channels at 2.5Gbps each. And um noise was never a problem and the data all got through perfectly. This was multi-protocol stuff that I'll not even attempt to mention on pfm.
There is a lot of crap spouted on the Internet by people that have zero understanding. Even in the business! For example I installed one of the first DWDM service in the UK (for a top investment bank - Cazenove https://www.google.com/maps/place/1...b7eb00e86cb895e!8m2!3d51.5155556!4d-0.0883858) using BT who supplied the equipment and laid the fibre over many Km. They really got into a mess at the consumer premises as they hadn't a clue about multi-mode and single mode fibres that were required. I had to get my own engineers in to sort that mess out!
As for Ethernet switches making any difference to audio! LAN and WAN protocols will deliver your data perfectly intact. If your audio stuff is at all affected by 'noise' it is a crap design/build and needs to be replaced. Its amazing that the financial World works so well and that we can send and control vehicles on Mars and even further afield oh and remotely control fighter drones remotely if a simple Ethernet switch can make all that difference.
Cheers,
DV
Darth Vader
From the Dark Side
A media converter is just that! It doesn't care what protocol you are using! A signal on one medium is sent intact on a different medium thats all.
Ethernet protocol can be sent over any medium. Originally it was over very thick coaxial cable known to us locals as thicknet. I still have sore fingers from the vampire taps - yes really that is what they were called!
Cheers,
DV
Amber Audio
This is the Day
A Router is different to a Switch. Some Routers do have SFP ports, they tend to be expensive and used in larger business networks.
In a home environment the Router (usually supplied by your ISP - e.g. BT or Sky) is the brains and combines several functions including a built in 4 port Switch. A Router usually connects you to the Internet, provides Wi-Fi and keeps all your Devices communicating by giving each a unique IP Number (kind of like a car number plate) and manages the data - which Device to send data to/from.
A Switch allows more than 4 Devices to be added to the Network managed by the Router. The Router and Switch connect by a normal copper RJ45 cable. Copper network cable has a limitation on how long it can work reliably, about 100M. To run further (much further in some case Km) Fibre Optic cabling is used, those SFP modules (small form factor pluggable modules) do convert the data coming in over the copper RJ45 cables into optical data transmissions - it works both ways (Duplex) copper to optical and optical to copper send/receive.
In a home environment the Router (usually supplied by your ISP - e.g. BT or Sky) is the brains and combines several functions including a built in 4 port Switch. A Router usually connects you to the Internet, provides Wi-Fi and keeps all your Devices communicating by giving each a unique IP Number (kind of like a car number plate) and manages the data - which Device to send data to/from.
A Switch allows more than 4 Devices to be added to the Network managed by the Router. The Router and Switch connect by a normal copper RJ45 cable. Copper network cable has a limitation on how long it can work reliably, about 100M. To run further (much further in some case Km) Fibre Optic cabling is used, those SFP modules (small form factor pluggable modules) do convert the data coming in over the copper RJ45 cables into optical data transmissions - it works both ways (Duplex) copper to optical and optical to copper send/receive.
Darth Vader
From the Dark Side
In a nutshell you have no idea. May I suggest that you take some time to understand how LANs and WANs work. I guess you'll take my comment the wrong way but if this really is your line of business then it really is in your own interest to get to grips with how this stuff really works.
Sorry,
DV
Amber Audio
This is the Day
You explain it for him then, in the way he asked - as if talking to a golden retriever.
He won’t have a clue about the difference between a wide area network WAN or a local area network LAN.
I’m managing my business just fine, thanks for the condescending post.
Nigel, I just installed the 2960CG and used a TP Link fiber converter to convert back to my Matrix Mini-i Pro 3. Seems rock solid and I too heard some improvements to the sound.
Colin L
High-tech low-life
.I seem to have started something...Look I am a layman when it comes to networks, and it took me while to get to grips the basics which is all I understand. I get it DV that as an expert in networks you think its all down to poor quality audio equipment that is deficient in handling noise. But But But I grew up with a sound engineer of a father who didn't believe a fraction of what we have come to accept in the world of hifi, try as I might I couldn't budge his deeply held views about audio - so I get it. But here's the thing I have a pretty good hifi system here (two in fact) and I know what I hear. I can hear that Chord Signature mains cables don't sound as good as Naim Powerlines on Naim equipment, nor for that matter does Chord Sarum mains cables. The converse is true with non Naim equipment like Melco. I can hear that ethernet cables sound different - so the Melco C1AE is pretty dull and just as bad as the SOtM dCBL-CAT7 - the Wireworld Chroma CAT8 is much better - better still is the Wireworld Starlight CAT8 - better still is the Chord Signature and best of all is the Chord Sarum. I can hear that and its not subtle either. So I had the Cisco 2960G simply because it was supposed to be better than a netgear switcher. When I replaced it with a Silent Angel Bonn N8 which is supposed to be a audiophile switch (which incidently is about as tiny as a netgear switch) it sounded worse, so I took it out. And then I tried the SOtM sNH-10G with sPS-500SE power supply, which is serious money, it still sounded worse. So I took a chance on a newer Cisco 2960CG and hey presto it sounded better. Now I'm not making still stuff up. I've been into hifi for over 40 years and lets face it popping down to your local dealer only works so far because a. they want to sell you something and b. their set up is not your set up - so I buy what I think will make a difference - and if it does I keep it - if not it goes back or gets sold. So I come to the conclusion that in audio everything counts to some extent and if the system is sensitive enough you will hear these differences. Of course not every charge is beneficial.
Lets talk about the SPF modules and the ADOT MC01. Most the switchers are just ethernet which means to use optical network cable - (different of course to normal audio optical cable) - you will have to have a switcher that can accommodate a SPF module, (illustrated in an earlier post here) or a converter such as the ADOT MC01. Now I just bought the 10Gtek ones from amazon and the 1G SFP SX LC Multimode Modules again from amazon which are compatible with Cisco. Of course the converters come with flimsy power supplies, but in my case I don't streamer audio from Spotify or Tidal and each system has its own local server. So for me the converters aren't in the signal path, they are only being used to optically filter any ethernet noise from the server and thus the streamer. Thus I reasoned replacing these converters with an audiophile one and adding a power supply would be superfluous.
My final thought is this. We all know that adding a bigger power supply improves the sound quality - and its not because the smaller power supply is underpowered for the job its being asked to do. So why wouldn't a little help in the ethernet department help a bit. I remember the day I compared a CD555 to an NDS and it was hands down to the NDS. I wasn't that that the CD555 wasn't any good - quite frankly in my book its the best CD player ever made (I'm certain there will always be someone out there to disagree) but the very nature of streaming is intrinsically better that pulling the digits off a spinning disc. I remember my father disbelieving that a coffee table under a turntable sounded better than anything else - how could that possibly make a difference he would say...
Lets talk about the SPF modules and the ADOT MC01. Most the switchers are just ethernet which means to use optical network cable - (different of course to normal audio optical cable) - you will have to have a switcher that can accommodate a SPF module, (illustrated in an earlier post here) or a converter such as the ADOT MC01. Now I just bought the 10Gtek ones from amazon and the 1G SFP SX LC Multimode Modules again from amazon which are compatible with Cisco. Of course the converters come with flimsy power supplies, but in my case I don't streamer audio from Spotify or Tidal and each system has its own local server. So for me the converters aren't in the signal path, they are only being used to optically filter any ethernet noise from the server and thus the streamer. Thus I reasoned replacing these converters with an audiophile one and adding a power supply would be superfluous.
My final thought is this. We all know that adding a bigger power supply improves the sound quality - and its not because the smaller power supply is underpowered for the job its being asked to do. So why wouldn't a little help in the ethernet department help a bit. I remember the day I compared a CD555 to an NDS and it was hands down to the NDS. I wasn't that that the CD555 wasn't any good - quite frankly in my book its the best CD player ever made (I'm certain there will always be someone out there to disagree) but the very nature of streaming is intrinsically better that pulling the digits off a spinning disc. I remember my father disbelieving that a coffee table under a turntable sounded better than anything else - how could that possibly make a difference he would say...
rag987
pfm Member
Time to feedback. I added a second Cisco 2960 switch with optical SFP between the 2 switches. Let it run for a week or so, then did an A/B with the Ethernet cable to my media streamer either on switch 1 (full Ethernet) or switch 2 (via optical). I cannot make out any difference.
Note my switches are WS- C2960-8TC, not the CG variant that @Nigel S reported an improvement with.
Note my switches are WS- C2960-8TC, not the CG variant that @Nigel S reported an improvement with.
