Mods to Naim CDS3
- Thread starter rontoolsie
- Start date
Tants need a strong DC bias to put them into their linear zone. They won't sound good without it and that may be the problem with using them on an output (like most CDPs) that's sitting at 0V DC, give or take a few mVs.
Actually, so long as your preamp input is capacitively coupled, you could safely lose the output cap in the CDP altogether!
Mr Tibbs
rontoolsie
pfm Member
While the tants may not be 'exactly cheap', they can be had for less than $1US/piece in small quantaties, and probably much less in much larger amounts. And essentially ANY component in series with the audio signal has got to be contributing to the sound- the trick is to find the ones that contributes the least. The good thing about the tants from a manufacturers viewpoint is that
1. They are relatively inexpensive.
2. They are compact.
3. They have long term stability.
4. They may be offering a large part of the 'signature sound' and be part of the legacy design.
I have actually thought about getting rid of the output caps in the CDP, but my pre-amp to be (still in design/build stage) has no input coupling.
1. They are relatively inexpensive.
2. They are compact.
3. They have long term stability.
4. They may be offering a large part of the 'signature sound' and be part of the legacy design.
I have actually thought about getting rid of the output caps in the CDP, but my pre-amp to be (still in design/build stage) has no input coupling.
Perhaps you are right Ron.
But I have thrown out many Cardas leads, for example, of the way of more musically competent stuff. That name does not ring good bells for me but I am not condemning everything Cardas by these experiences.
However, those tants are inevitably important for Naims' PRaT sound and I would be most careful to swap them for anything else. Tants often offer somewhat of roughness but musically they seem to be very competent stuff.
Be careful not the change Naim's unique musical sound for a normal, boring hifi.
A cap is not anymore so cheap after a big bunch of them have been measured to strict tolerances and big part of the bunch has been disqualified. The cost of the cap gets to multiple value from buying price for the company by added working hours. But the price of the components is not at all a question for me. It is the sound in certain implementation. That is sometimes a result of hundreds of hours of work.
Oz
But I have thrown out many Cardas leads, for example, of the way of more musically competent stuff. That name does not ring good bells for me but I am not condemning everything Cardas by these experiences.
However, those tants are inevitably important for Naims' PRaT sound and I would be most careful to swap them for anything else. Tants often offer somewhat of roughness but musically they seem to be very competent stuff.
Be careful not the change Naim's unique musical sound for a normal, boring hifi.
A cap is not anymore so cheap after a big bunch of them have been measured to strict tolerances and big part of the bunch has been disqualified. The cost of the cap gets to multiple value from buying price for the company by added working hours. But the price of the components is not at all a question for me. It is the sound in certain implementation. That is sometimes a result of hundreds of hours of work.
Oz
rontoolsie
pfm Member
Linnik,
I appreciate what you are saying, and have to admit that I have heard unadulterated Naim gear sound fantastic, as have many other people on this and other fora. But I wish you could hear for yourself the magnitude of changes that are inescapably those of large improvements that can be wrought by doing some fiddling to the output capacitors. Or the striking collapse of dynamics, detail, definition and tonality when a reworked on head unit is replaced by a standard one.
It is arguable that only in otherwise non-Naim system would these sonic changes be construed as improvements, but Theotherone is using a 552/500 and estimates that his redone CDS3 is at least as large as going from a Supernait as a preamp to a 552. Another friend of mine uses his CDS3 in a 282/Hicap/250.2/Allae system and was taken aback by how greatly inferior his unit sounded as compared to mine in his own system. Not one person who has heard the A/B has thought that the standard unit is more musical in anyway. I only base my comments on direct experiences of myself and others.
I appreciate what you are saying, and have to admit that I have heard unadulterated Naim gear sound fantastic, as have many other people on this and other fora. But I wish you could hear for yourself the magnitude of changes that are inescapably those of large improvements that can be wrought by doing some fiddling to the output capacitors. Or the striking collapse of dynamics, detail, definition and tonality when a reworked on head unit is replaced by a standard one.
It is arguable that only in otherwise non-Naim system would these sonic changes be construed as improvements, but Theotherone is using a 552/500 and estimates that his redone CDS3 is at least as large as going from a Supernait as a preamp to a 552. Another friend of mine uses his CDS3 in a 282/Hicap/250.2/Allae system and was taken aback by how greatly inferior his unit sounded as compared to mine in his own system. Not one person who has heard the A/B has thought that the standard unit is more musical in anyway. I only base my comments on direct experiences of myself and others.
Patrick Dixon
Imagineer
If it has no input coupling then you're going to struggle to get any signal through it ;-)
Just looked on the Cardas capacitor website. No specification sheets giving values of ESR, or inductance, or change with temperature or frequency, or any other electrical measurements except capacitance and working voltage. Just stuff about "Retained Energy Scaling", "constrained layer damping" and magic.
Audiophile snake-oil?
Audiophile snake-oil?
mikesnowdon
resU deretsigeR
You should re-write the word as "Carda$". How is a block of wood with a nice logo worth that much money - I dont know? Must be the best sounding peice of wood in the universe!
Sorry Ron. I love what you've done with your machine and I don't doubt it sounds fantastic. I just cant help but wonder if you would have got similar results bypassing the Tants with Wima MKS2's though..... A fraction of the cost and smaller to boot. And yes, I do have something against the Card$ brand. To my mind its overpriced audiofoolery. I mean no disrespect to you, and I totally respect your bravery to delve into such an expensive machine with a hot soldering iron!
Sorry Ron. I love what you've done with your machine and I don't doubt it sounds fantastic. I just cant help but wonder if you would have got similar results bypassing the Tants with Wima MKS2's though..... A fraction of the cost and smaller to boot. And yes, I do have something against the Card$ brand. To my mind its overpriced audiofoolery. I mean no disrespect to you, and I totally respect your bravery to delve into such an expensive machine with a hot soldering iron!
rontoolsie
pfm Member
Mike,
I am pretty sure that bypassing the tants with almost *anything* would offer large improvements, but the degree of those improvements would be proportional to the subjective quality of the bypass caps. And in my experiments the Cardas caps are by far the most neutral that I have tried. I would love to try the $$$$$ Duelund CAST caps, but they are maybe 10x the price of the Cardas ones and are even larger. And I have already spend at least a kilobuck on capacitors that never made the final cut and are lying in a cardboard box somewhere.
The Cardas caps, like so many other domestic hi-end audiocaps are made in California by RTI, to the clients specifications. But those specifications vary widely, as do their performance.
I have no experience with the Cardas myrtle wood blocks. They may or may not offer any changes or improvements. But I have in the past spent thousands of $ on Fraim, which in my application made not one bit of difference as compared to a $150 Target rack. But it sure looked nicer and gave me a warm feeling knowing that my Naim/Naim/Naim/Naim/Naim/Naim/Naim/Naim/Naim/Linn/Naim/Naim system was supported on Naim stands.
If you only heard what $100 in Cardas bypass caps did for a CDS3, I doubt very much if you would consider the results overpriced.
I am pretty sure that bypassing the tants with almost *anything* would offer large improvements, but the degree of those improvements would be proportional to the subjective quality of the bypass caps. And in my experiments the Cardas caps are by far the most neutral that I have tried. I would love to try the $$$$$ Duelund CAST caps, but they are maybe 10x the price of the Cardas ones and are even larger. And I have already spend at least a kilobuck on capacitors that never made the final cut and are lying in a cardboard box somewhere.
The Cardas caps, like so many other domestic hi-end audiocaps are made in California by RTI, to the clients specifications. But those specifications vary widely, as do their performance.
I have no experience with the Cardas myrtle wood blocks. They may or may not offer any changes or improvements. But I have in the past spent thousands of $ on Fraim, which in my application made not one bit of difference as compared to a $150 Target rack. But it sure looked nicer and gave me a warm feeling knowing that my Naim/Naim/Naim/Naim/Naim/Naim/Naim/Naim/Naim/Linn/Naim/Naim system was supported on Naim stands.
If you only heard what $100 in Cardas bypass caps did for a CDS3, I doubt very much if you would consider the results overpriced.
mikesnowdon
resU deretsigeR
Hi Ron.
Very true, I dont doubt the performace upgrade these caps have produced and I would love to hear it. I'd also like to hear what a small, cheap, stacked film cap would do in the same application and judge if the extra bucks of the Cardas still held value when compared to them. Id be surprised though if there wasn't a slight improvement with the Cardas, but I don't now if that improvement would warrant the kilobucks they cost. Hey, if I could afford a CDS3 I'd probably be using Cardas (or similar) anyways!
So whats next for your machine? Ive really found this thread interesting so far. Keep it coming!
A few other assorted thoughts;
Bypassing works up to a point, but the inferior capacitor will still dominate the overall result. Since you're trying to get the maximum effect of the Cardas cap's, then IMHO you need to use a 'base' capacitor that is at least electrically more similar to the Cardas than a Tantalum capacitor. Replacing the Tant's with small, inexpensive film cap's like the Wima would create a better platform for bypassing with low-value Cardas capacitors. Also, assuming your preamp is DC coupled at the input, you probably no longer need anything like 10uF of coupling capacitance. I would suggest a 4.7uF Wima as the base cap in place of the 10uF Tant, then bypass the Wima with a low value Cardas.
Mr Tibbs
Bypassing works up to a point, but the inferior capacitor will still dominate the overall result. Since you're trying to get the maximum effect of the Cardas cap's, then IMHO you need to use a 'base' capacitor that is at least electrically more similar to the Cardas than a Tantalum capacitor. Replacing the Tant's with small, inexpensive film cap's like the Wima would create a better platform for bypassing with low-value Cardas capacitors. Also, assuming your preamp is DC coupled at the input, you probably no longer need anything like 10uF of coupling capacitance. I would suggest a 4.7uF Wima as the base cap in place of the 10uF Tant, then bypass the Wima with a low value Cardas.
Mr Tibbs
dave
Plywood King
Ron,
No difference in sound between Fraims and a Target stand??? More details please sir...
regards,
dave
rontoolsie
pfm Member
Today I was talking about doing exactly that.... the best way to upgrade the tant cap is to *replace* that tant cap. The 4.7 uF Wima may be a perfect candidate, although technically having a lower coupling value may result in early LF rolloff if the CDP is used into a preamp with a lowish input impedence.
Dave,
I couldn't really tell the difference when I got the Fraim, really I couldn't. Maybe because the equipment was housed in an adjoining walk in closet lessened its susceptability to vibrations.
How about this offer Dave...we live in adjoining states. If you like I could ship you my modded CDS3/XPS2 and it would be there on the next day. Then you can spend a few days with it (and having the chance to compare my hot-rodded XPS2 with your current supply in your current player too). All I ask is that you post your honest opinion, favourable or not, and pay for return shipping. Thats it. If that is agreeable, e-mail me your shipping address to [email protected].
Dave,
I couldn't really tell the difference when I got the Fraim, really I couldn't. Maybe because the equipment was housed in an adjoining walk in closet lessened its susceptability to vibrations.
How about this offer Dave...we live in adjoining states. If you like I could ship you my modded CDS3/XPS2 and it would be there on the next day. Then you can spend a few days with it (and having the chance to compare my hot-rodded XPS2 with your current supply in your current player too). All I ask is that you post your honest opinion, favourable or not, and pay for return shipping. Thats it. If that is agreeable, e-mail me your shipping address to [email protected].
dave
Plywood King
That's amazing...it must be the closet with its superior structural integrity.
Thanks for the kind offer of letting me borrow the CDS3 but I'd probably have a real problem on my hands returning it;-) On top of that, a chance at hearing an XPS2 against my tired CDPS (never recapped yet) on the CDS2 and in my rig might be too much to bear.
Now if I got an invite to hear the new Ron-Fi at some point, I could live with that as it's so far out of reach...well;-)
rontoolsie
pfm Member
Dave,
The offer still stands. Sometimes hearing a superior front end component validates the choice of elecronics/speakers downstream and can guide you in the direction of the next upgrade.
Never recapped CDSPS....hmmmmm. Could be done very very cheaply at this end, if you know what I mean. In fact I have 2x15,000uF never used Blackgate caps somewhere (cost circa $400 back then) that I have no plans for, and would rather see them in a PS making sweet sounds than in the cardboard box making non. Think about that one.
Back in the day when I 'upgraded' from the CDS2/CDSPS to the CDS2/XPS1, I missed the warm tonality of the CDSPS which I felt was more accurate and musical than the somewhat edgy presentation with the XPS. The XPS2 restores the missing warmth and adds some extra detail and definition, but may still not represent a cost effective upgrade over the CDSPS, at least with the CDS2.
The offer still stands. Sometimes hearing a superior front end component validates the choice of elecronics/speakers downstream and can guide you in the direction of the next upgrade.
Never recapped CDSPS....hmmmmm. Could be done very very cheaply at this end, if you know what I mean. In fact I have 2x15,000uF never used Blackgate caps somewhere (cost circa $400 back then) that I have no plans for, and would rather see them in a PS making sweet sounds than in the cardboard box making non. Think about that one.
Back in the day when I 'upgraded' from the CDS2/CDSPS to the CDS2/XPS1, I missed the warm tonality of the CDSPS which I felt was more accurate and musical than the somewhat edgy presentation with the XPS. The XPS2 restores the missing warmth and adds some extra detail and definition, but may still not represent a cost effective upgrade over the CDSPS, at least with the CDS2.
dave
Plywood King
Thanks for offer again. I'm hoping to take another vacation week at the cabin in Murphy next spring so it would be a perfect opportunity to hear this new wonder machine you've commisioned.
I'll keep your Black gate offer in mind as well! Unfortunately, I have a sick NAT 101 head unit that's awaiting funds for a trip back to Salisbury for repair. It sounds as if needs a new tuner head.
I recall your CDS trials in Naimland very well. Your comments about the charms of the CDPS vs the XPS1 have allowed me to sleep at night all this time;-)
I'll keep your Black gate offer in mind as well! Unfortunately, I have a sick NAT 101 head unit that's awaiting funds for a trip back to Salisbury for repair. It sounds as if needs a new tuner head.
I recall your CDS trials in Naimland very well. Your comments about the charms of the CDPS vs the XPS1 have allowed me to sleep at night all this time;-)
1Theotherone
Member
I would like to comment re: the Naim sound, in particular PRAT which seems the signature for Naim. Having in the past five years gone from a CD5i, CD5x, CDX2, CDS3 and now a modded CDS3....I have to say my findings were that the Naim sound has been extremely variable between their line of CDPs (replay being through a 552/500...though not with the CD5x).
The greatest difference in sound between CDPs I found to be between the CDX2 and the CDS3....I am sure that if a neutral observer was to do a blind test, I expect they would be excused for thinking they were players from two different companies. The CDX2/XPS2 had PRAT galore though it also had a digital edge. The CDS3/XPS2 had a totally different presentation and IMO was not big on PRAT and had a languid / laid back presentation which certainly resolved any digital edge though at times I felt it needed a 'kick up the backside'....and I am not the first to come to that conclusion.
Until my CDS3 was modded, I had never experienced what I now know to be 'grip' and 'bass slam', it is when I hear these things I know I have found replay that meets my expectations of hi fi, it is a listening experience that is both physical and cerebral and is a whole new experience and a highly rewarding one at that. There is far more immediacy detail and balance to the music. Time and time again I will replay a recording as it is so involving and pleasurable. Without reservation I will be going ahead with the extra mods described by Ron, though my predicament is letting go of my machine for the mods though I still have my CD5i as back up.
I think it important that I point out that I know nothing about the technical stuff...absolutely zilch...all I am interested in is achieving the best sound possible and feel fortunate to to be able to benefit from Ron's many year of experience in hi fi and in particular with Naim products. It is also worth noting that Ron has been a supporter of Naim and its products pretty much from the get go......or at least when it was more of a cottage industry under the helm of the late founder Julien V.
The greatest difference in sound between CDPs I found to be between the CDX2 and the CDS3....I am sure that if a neutral observer was to do a blind test, I expect they would be excused for thinking they were players from two different companies. The CDX2/XPS2 had PRAT galore though it also had a digital edge. The CDS3/XPS2 had a totally different presentation and IMO was not big on PRAT and had a languid / laid back presentation which certainly resolved any digital edge though at times I felt it needed a 'kick up the backside'....and I am not the first to come to that conclusion.
Until my CDS3 was modded, I had never experienced what I now know to be 'grip' and 'bass slam', it is when I hear these things I know I have found replay that meets my expectations of hi fi, it is a listening experience that is both physical and cerebral and is a whole new experience and a highly rewarding one at that. There is far more immediacy detail and balance to the music. Time and time again I will replay a recording as it is so involving and pleasurable. Without reservation I will be going ahead with the extra mods described by Ron, though my predicament is letting go of my machine for the mods though I still have my CD5i as back up.
I think it important that I point out that I know nothing about the technical stuff...absolutely zilch...all I am interested in is achieving the best sound possible and feel fortunate to to be able to benefit from Ron's many year of experience in hi fi and in particular with Naim products. It is also worth noting that Ron has been a supporter of Naim and its products pretty much from the get go......or at least when it was more of a cottage industry under the helm of the late founder Julien V.
stackowax
pfm Member
So how does this compare to the LP12/Aro/Armageddon/Prefix--assuming you still have that?
rontoolsie
pfm Member
Yes, I still have the LP12/Aro/Helikon/Prefix/Armageddon/Epona SPS power supply (better than a Supercap in an A/B test). But I have not used it for many, many months. The modded CDS3 is as Linn used to say 'simply better'.
PS Dave,
The Blackgate capacitors I have squirreled away somewhere, I am willing to let to for gratis if they are to be used in a CDSPS. If they are physically and electronically compatible with the power supply, you would have to pay just for the relatively small cost of installation, none of which goes into my pocket.
PS Dave,
The Blackgate capacitors I have squirreled away somewhere, I am willing to let to for gratis if they are to be used in a CDSPS. If they are physically and electronically compatible with the power supply, you would have to pay just for the relatively small cost of installation, none of which goes into my pocket.