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Supatrac: the world's best tonearm?

Tony L said:
This is where things start to get interesting IMO. There are obviously many, many factors, but one is arms can not be viewed as an isolated entity. They are an interface between a transducer (cartridge) and the platform upon which they are mounted. Any mechanical energy generated by the transducer has to go somewhere, and when it gets there something must happen to it.

Michael Fremer’s OMA is an absolutely massive chunk of cast iron that likely needed a fork-lift truck to get into his room. It lies at the furthest extreme of one side of the turntable design bell-curve. It is here the arms are terminated. The question I’m interested in is whether the energy in the arm-tube hits this huge immobile mass and gets reflected back up the arm tube, or whether it is somehow dissipated into the huge mass? If the level really is different between files and isn’t just a setup or recording issue then my hunch would be there is a key difference in coupling and damping between the arms.

At this point you really need to break out the accelerometers and see what is actually happening. I’d personally not assume ‘louder is better’, that could possibly be resonance/reflection back up the tube to the cartridge, i.e. a feedback loop. Obviously all this is hugely deck dependent too, e.g. a quarter-ton or whatever of OMA cast iron is going to behave very different to the lightweight ‘floorboard’ armboard of say an old-school LP12. Different arms will behave in differing ways in different contexts.

As I say, interesting stuff. With enough time we might even get to learn something!

PS I realise as site owner I should probably stay out of this one, but I find it interesting, this geekery is my area, and after scrapping several lengthy posts yesterday I do want to make the points above as even now no one else has. If nothing else Fremer’s turntable can only be viewed as a highly atypical place to put a tonearm (I feel this about all his reviews to be honest).
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That all makes sense to me. There is also the question of heat and sound in the structure itself. Heat and sound are dissipated into the air. Heat will descend through the bearings quite slowly due to the small contact surfaces, whereas the air will suck it out all over the surface. Regardless of the platform which the arms sit on, in general I would expect a more rigid arm structure to absorb less energy and convert more of it into signal. These questions arise and vary at every frequency, which is why Fourier and FEA are used to address the complexity. I take the Unix approach: worry about solving the big issues and leave the little ones until later.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
That's interesting. What does that suggest for level-matching methodology, would you say? Should one set the amp volume control at the same level, so any benefits of a less lossy tonearm are audible, or should one reduce the level so that the output is the same, thereby removing one of the audible benefits of the less lossy tonearm from scrutiny?
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Reduce the level, because when you listen for pleasure you will set it to the volume which suits you, a level independent of equipment efficiency.
 
Jazzer said:
Sadly, I just can’t listen to that kind stuff.🤷‍♂️
I was hoping MF would play something different because I am always interested in how the real high end kit actaully sounds.
I get about a minute into the track and my brain screams at me to turn it off.
I think it’s to do with the rythym and the disconnection between what each instrument is actually playing?

I know I’m in the minority, especially among audio enthusiasts but for what it’s worth, I thought D had the edge for dynamics at least as far as I managed to listen.
Even on Dropbox though I didn’t think it was great sound But as I said, Im no expert on that kind of music.
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Audiophiles do seem to consider elevator music to be of a higher order of excellence. Possibly hard to judge solely on taste.?
 
Vinny said:
There is no such thing as a universally "best" of anything.

I watched quite a bit of the video and some simple maths, mechanics and logic says that the explanation of the "benefit" of the orientation of the pivot is total fantasy. At the very simplest of simple levels, if it were even remotely close to true, arms like the Schroder Model 2, and other similar designs, would be worse than total sh1te. They aren't.

Presumably the Supertrac is pretty good given what people go into print with, but beyond that?
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"total sh1te" is a bit harsh ;-)

I really do think anchoring the arm so that it can remain very still in the time axis is a principle of good arm bearing design, and the SUPA bearing is one more imperfect but fairly cost-effective way of trying to achieve that.
 
Vinny said:
There is no such thing as a universally "best" of anything.

I watched quite a bit of the video and some simple maths, mechanics and logic says that the explanation of the "benefit" of the orientation of the pivot is total fantasy. At the very simplest of simple levels, if it were even remotely close to true, arms like the Schroder Model 2, and other similar designs, would be worse than total sh1te. They aren't.

Presumably the Supertrac is pretty good given what people go into print with, but beyond that?
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Vinny has awoken.
 
sonddek said:
Reduce the level, because when you listen for pleasure you will set it to the volume which suits you, a level independent of equipment efficiency.
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Yes, but it has sometimes been my experience that better equipment allows higher volume levels without strain, and it might be that my ‘preferred’ level is determined by some unpleasant artefact appearing rather than absolute level, so absent artefact permits higher level listening.
 
I’m preferring D, listening in Cambridge cxn v2 into AVI 9.1 actives at gf’s.

I felt the cymbals had more ‘air’ and texture and it was easier to follow the bass strings?

Whichever the Supatrac is, having been loaned an earlier model I wish Richard all the success he’s getting. His enthusiasm and commitment is to be applauded.
 
epo1 said:
Don't be surprised if the rematch never happens.
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Aged like milk.

On a first listen on my iMac speakers, there isn't a night and day difference, volume if anything. Will try the Sony Bluetooth noise cancellers later.
 
gizza said:
Just playing the 2 files back through my phone speaker, file C is much easier to follow and appreciate the various instruments, much more coherent than file D.
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(Slight) preference for C here as I think I can follow the bass line better (e.g. about 1.05 in) but pretty small differences at least on MacBook / AirPods Pro 2s
 
Again I couldn't really easily distinguish, but the same bass solo passage that made me prefer A over B leads me to prefer D over C.

C is definitely slightly louder, which Audacity spectral analysis confirms
 
Interesting.
I met Richard briefly at the Bristol Hifi Show before it opened to the public on the Friday morning. We had a few moments before the crowds descended and we listened to a brand new recording (test pressing) in his room (his brand new Rega TT's and Blackbird arm, not sure of cartridge) and in the room I was helping in (Technics 1200G and Ortofon 2M Bronze). Was one better than the other, I hate using the word "better", I prefer different and they were different.
I'd have liked to try the arm on the Technics, now that would have been interesting......
 
Very similar difference to last time, C is clearly better, D is confused and flat.

I think we can conclude that the SAT arm really isnt very good.
 
i-Phone, Soncoz DAC, Luxman, Tannoy

Not my type of music, but enjoyable enough. Difficult to discern much difference. Perhaps a slight preference for C, which I listened to first, although I think there were one or two more pops and clicks on this one.
 
sonddek said:
You have to hand it to Michael Fremer, he actually tries to find out. In an industry which often shies away from this kind of thing for all sorts of commercial and political reasons, he is doing a nice impersonation of Johnny Rotten.

If my arm is the loser to my ears, I will go back to the drawing board and design a better one. Why stop here?
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Richard, before all is revealed, which recording do you prefer?
 
John said:
Richard, before all is revealed, which recording do you prefer?
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I'm not going to say. Yet. I wrote an email to MF making very clear which of C and D I preferred, and why I preferred it. At the end of the email I said:

"...if it's the SAT I will go back to the drawing board and develop a new arm to try to catch it, because I can't afford one! If I'm wrong I'll feel as embarrassed as a father who has failed to identify his own child."

MF has now told me whether I was wrong or right. Please understand I'm not an expert - I'm just some bloke who had an interesting idea for a tone-arm bearing, and is trying to build it for a realistic price. Don't expect too much of me!
 
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