Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
IME it's already seen off far better arms than the Ekos
Supatrac: the world's best tonearm?
- Thread starter yuckyamson
- Start date
Fremer is in a no-win situation. Since the SAT arm had the advantage of the costlier Atlas cartridge, those who preferred sound sample A would naturally like another arm to be used in the next test (Frank Schroeder's "crane", perhaps), whilst those who sided with B would like the playing field to be levelled by using the same cartridge in both the Supatrac and SAT arms.
Perhaps he should poll the users of his Tracking Angle website?
For me, the weight of anecdotal evidence in favour of the Supatrac definitely makes it worth investigating.
Perhaps he should poll the users of his Tracking Angle website?
For me, the weight of anecdotal evidence in favour of the Supatrac definitely makes it worth investigating.
sonddek
Trade: SUPATRAC
Hmm. I have all that kit. But so little time. Orders, Axpona, Munich.
Bully me for it. I respond to bullying...
I veered towards B and would like to be able to ascribe that to a much more expensive cartridge.
But, and for me fascinatingly, SAT are in jeopardy here; if the Supatrac matches or beats it with the better cartridge they will lose face, if it is only just better than Supatrac people will just shrug it off and say you get 98% of the performance for 1/7th the cost; the evidence so far is that SAT cannot crush Supatrac which for them is the only result worth having.
Richard has everything to gain here, SAT has nothing to gain and the possibility of losing face. Were I them I would try to prevent a rematch. Don't be surprised if the rematch never happens.
But, and for me fascinatingly, SAT are in jeopardy here; if the Supatrac matches or beats it with the better cartridge they will lose face, if it is only just better than Supatrac people will just shrug it off and say you get 98% of the performance for 1/7th the cost; the evidence so far is that SAT cannot crush Supatrac which for them is the only result worth having.
Richard has everything to gain here, SAT has nothing to gain and the possibility of losing face. Were I them I would try to prevent a rematch. Don't be surprised if the rematch never happens.
Engels
pfm Member
as the first to say A was the best am I at the top?I'm amazed that A turned out to be the Supatrac - congratulations, Richard! Turns the law of diminishing returns on its head, so Michael Fremer must be feeling a little embarrassed for endorsing the ridiculously expensive SAT arm!
So will those of us who guessed/hoped correctly get bumped up the waiting list when we place an order?
13th Duke of Wymbourne
pfm Member
Everytime someone posts about Supatrac the lead time grows a little bit.
I seriously question people who proclaim they can tell what the arm and cart are bringing to the table when both are different, that's usually what happens on some weird golden eared A/B test like this. Either use the same cart or arm depending on what you're testing, otherwise it's pointless.
sonddek
Trade: SUPATRAC
tpetsch
...The rhythm has Control
Me too, "C" is more in tune than "D"
13th Duke of Wymbourne
pfm Member
Richard, your next invention should be some sort of mechanism to remove dust and fluff from LP records. Definitely a novel idea and there should be at least one customer in NJ, USA.
sonddek
Trade: SUPATRAC
You have to hand it to Michael Fremer, he actually tries to find out. In an industry which often shies away from this kind of thing for all sorts of commercial and political reasons, he is doing a nice impersonation of Johnny Rotten.
If my arm is the loser to my ears, I will go back to the drawing board and design a better one. Why stop here?
If my arm is the loser to my ears, I will go back to the drawing board and design a better one. Why stop here?
sonddek
Trade: SUPATRAC
Good idea. Some sort of fluid which will be cheap, widely available, ultra-effective, and useful for many other domestic and industrial purposes. I'm working on it ;-)
YesMan
Member
Now I had a minute over for some listening. Wow, two great sounding recordings to me (through my too humble earphones)!
But I think I prefer C a bit more over D.
Imported the files into audacity for easy swapping while listening and then also noted the recording C waveform look be a bit louder than D.
A RMS measurement confirmed. C is in average around 1db louder.
Maybe a clue? Maybe Mr Fremer not having his recording routine in order?
But I think I prefer C a bit more over D.
Imported the files into audacity for easy swapping while listening and then also noted the recording C waveform look be a bit louder than D.
A RMS measurement confirmed. C is in average around 1db louder.
Maybe a clue? Maybe Mr Fremer not having his recording routine in order?
sonddek
Trade: SUPATRAC
It could be that, but I found one tonearm to be 2dB louder than another when I recorded them using the same cartridge and all downstream settings unchanged. Different tonearms absorb energy at different rates, and if they absorb it, it's not going to be found in the signal peaks.Now I had a minute over for some listening. Wow, two great sounding recordings to me (through my too humble earphones)!
But I think I prefer C a bit more over D.
Imported the files into audacity for easy swapping while listening and then also noted the recording C waveform look be a bit louder than D.
A RMS measurement confirmed. C is in average around 1db louder.
Maybe a clue? Maybe Mr Fremer not having his recording routine in order?
Tony L
Administrator
This is where things start to get interesting IMO. There are obviously many, many factors, but one is arms can not be viewed as an isolated entity. They are an interface between a transducer (cartridge) and the platform upon which they are mounted. Any mechanical energy generated by the transducer has to go somewhere, and when it gets there something must happen to it.
Michael Fremer’s OMA is an absolutely massive chunk of cast iron that likely needed a fork-lift truck to get into his room. It lies at the furthest extreme of one side of the turntable design bell-curve. It is here the arms are terminated. The question I’m interested in is whether the energy in the arm-tube hits this huge immobile mass and gets reflected back up the arm tube, or whether it is somehow dissipated into the huge mass? It being damped by arm design is a third option. If the level really is different between files and isn’t just a setup or recording issue then my hunch would be there is a key difference in coupling and damping between the arms.
At this point you really need to break out the accelerometers and see what is actually happening. I’d personally not assume ‘louder is better’, that could possibly be resonance/reflection back up the tube to the cartridge, i.e. a feedback loop. Obviously all this is hugely deck dependent too, e.g. a quarter-ton or whatever of OMA cast iron is going to behave very different to the lightweight ‘floorboard’ armboard of say an old-school LP12. Different arms will behave in differing ways in different contexts.
As I say, interesting stuff. With enough time we might even get to learn something!
PS I realise as site owner I should probably stay out of this one, but I find it interesting, this geekery is my area, and after scrapping several lengthy posts yesterday I do want to make the points above as even now no one else has. If nothing else Fremer’s turntable can only be viewed as a highly atypical place to put a tonearm (I feel this about all his reviews to be honest).
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
That's interesting. What does that suggest for level-matching methodology, would you say? Should one set the amp volume control at the same level, so any benefits of a less lossy tonearm are audible, or should one reduce the level so that the output is the same, thereby removing one of the audible benefits of the less lossy tonearm from scrutiny?
Sadly, I just can’t listen to that kind stuff.
I was hoping MF would play something different because I am always interested in how the real high end kit actaully sounds.
I get about a minute into the track and my brain screams at me to turn it off.
I think it’s to do with the rythym and the disconnection between what each instrument is actually playing?
I know I’m in the minority, especially among audio enthusiasts but for what it’s worth, I thought D had the edge for dynamics at least as far as I managed to listen.
Even on Dropbox though I didn’t think it was great sound But as I said, Im no expert on that kind of music.
I was hoping MF would play something different because I am always interested in how the real high end kit actaully sounds.
I get about a minute into the track and my brain screams at me to turn it off.
I think it’s to do with the rythym and the disconnection between what each instrument is actually playing?
I know I’m in the minority, especially among audio enthusiasts but for what it’s worth, I thought D had the edge for dynamics at least as far as I managed to listen.
Even on Dropbox though I didn’t think it was great sound But as I said, Im no expert on that kind of music.
There is no such thing as a universally "best" of anything.
I watched quite a bit of the video and some simple maths, mechanics and logic says that the explanation of the "benefit" of the orientation of the pivot is total fantasy. At the very simplest of simple levels, if it were even remotely close to true, arms like the Schroder Model 2, and other similar designs, would be worse than total sh1te. They aren't.
Presumably the Supertrac is pretty good given what people go into print with, but beyond that?
I watched quite a bit of the video and some simple maths, mechanics and logic says that the explanation of the "benefit" of the orientation of the pivot is total fantasy. At the very simplest of simple levels, if it were even remotely close to true, arms like the Schroder Model 2, and other similar designs, would be worse than total sh1te. They aren't.
Presumably the Supertrac is pretty good given what people go into print with, but beyond that?