Should Ched Evans be playing professional soccer?

[Greg]

This sounds the same as the Evens case to me and hence why I suspect that he is not guilty on exactly the same grounds.

Have non of us here had a drunken shag with an equally drunk lass in our younger days ...??? I believe it is a very common occurrence between young people..... Good thing we didn't hear a loud knock on the door the next day eh....

if your "lass" was out cold maybe you got off lightly?

 

[cooky1257]

if your "lass" was out cold maybe you got off lightly?

He said 'drunken shag' Greg, no one is condoning or advocating shagging comatose women.
While we're here it's worth remembering women do like to get laid too you know, the entire male population aren't neanderthal predators.

Consent(if you've both been drinking),anything less than in writing is now very risky IMO. The amounts people seem to consume these days is also quite worrying-getting hammered is now the norm.

 

[Daniel Quinn]

Surely the judge, prosecution and Evan's no doubt very expensive defence team all fully understood the law regarding consent?

I do find it astounding there are so many arguing against the rape victim here. We are not dealing with some random chav with a fourth-rate legal-aid defence team, this is a millionaire footballer with access to the very best defence money can buy - if his team couldn't get him acquitted I'd say it was pretty safe to conclude he's guilty.

what we are dealing with appears to be the rogue decision of a jury who probably convicted him on reputation and the fact he was a footballer than any nuanced consideration of the issue of drunken consent versus rape .

Once again you are offering your opposition without actually dealing with the incongruities of the conviction . It is fine if you simply wish to rely upon the decision of the jury as your arbiter of his guilt or otherwise . That is your prerogative .

what is not fine is to attempt to criticise those who question the verdict by relying on the verdict . That is of course a tautology .

The undisputed facts of this case and the appeal court judgement ,establish the jury's decision is inexplicable and shocking .

 

[Daniel Quinn]

The Evans case is even more complicated than that - in his case he might actually be guilty but of rape (as UK law now defines it) but not realise it. That's because there is a subjective element to that particular law i.e. whether she was capable of giving consent and also whether he should have been aware that she was or wasn't capable.

I am intrigued! This seems to follow the latest press comment that the person who started the petition about his signing suggests that he simply doesn't know what rape is. Well the trouble is that some of the people discussing this appear to want to 'downgrade' the severity of a rape from rape to just a nasty business. We are back to a man doing something he should have decided not to.

As the father of a daughter who has told me that she has had to submit to having sex with men in a couple of situations she would have preferred not to but 'no' would not have worked,I admit i am pretty prejudiced about this. In none of the cases was she 'incapable'. She knew fully what was happening. She simply felt that it was safer to submit than to say no and resist. It is only men who do this and i have no sympathy for anyone caught, and in this case convicted. Many more should be convicted but most of all men need to educated about what is acceptable behaviour. And acceptable behaviour is not what you get get away with but rather what is morally correct.

In this case it is the fact that he still doesn't think he did anything wrong and that people are defending this position that i find both demeaning and frightening.

I am very sorry , but if my daughter when she grows up [ currently 11] told me that I would blame myself and her not the men involved . I may be being niave and over exagerating my parenting skills , as i have had girlfriends who have told me the same thing .

We need to separate here Rape as a criminal offence from sexual relations between young men and young women in 21 century Britain.

they are not the same thing . Many aspects of young peoples sexual relations are unsavory , dysfunctional , pathetic and in some cases morally wrong , that does not make it rape .

 

[Daniel Quinn]

if your "lass" was out cold maybe you got off lightly?

dear o dear o dear .

 

[cooky1257]

My opinion on this case is either both men had consensual sex or they both didn't, in which case both found guilty or both cleared of rape.

 

[KC Cantiaci]

Did she say yes to both? At the same time as the first guy/first encounter or separately? What about the other two filming through the hotel window? Did she agree to that as well? When drinking, drunkness can manifest itself over time. You could drink a large amount quickly but then feel progressive effects later so lose coherence/control as time goes on. She may well have agreed to the first guy but it can't be guaranteed that she was in control and gave consent later when Evans showed up. Because the 12 jury members came to this split conclusion after listening to the detail of the trial, I have to believe there's more to this case.

To me, the whole situation stinks. Evans books a room BUT for his friend?? His friend picks up the girl in question and texts/calls Evans that he has a girl and then Evans and his friends go to the hotel. They knew what they were doing and it was likely they planned this scenario. The only 'issue' that has bitten them in the arse was the coherence/drunken state and willingness of the girl they ended up with. On that point alone, I don't understand what they were thinking......but that's me.

 

[SteveG]

Did she say yes to both?

Allegedly yes, although she doesn't recall what she said to either.

At the same time as the first guy/first encounter or separately?

Seperately - which appears to be the reason that one was convicted and one wasn't. It doesn't sound like the reason was whether they thought she was capable of consenting in either case but that the other guy had reasonable grounds for thinking she consented (when she asked to accompany him in a taxi back to his hotel) and Evans didn't.

What about the other two filming through the hotel window? Did she agree to that as well?

I don't think anyone consented to that but I don't think it was seen as a factor in the case.

Because the 12 jury members came to this split conclusion after listening to the detail of the trial, I have to believe there's more to this case.

They also couldn't initially all agree on a verdict but did after being told to take some more time by the judge. They weren't given the option at that point of returning majority verdicts.

They knew what they were doing and it was likely they planned this scenario.

I think that's a stretch although not impossible. There was a lot happening that night - Evans was actually on his way to the police station to testify about another incident that evening (a fight one of his friends was involved in) when he got the text to say the other chap had picked up a girl.

 

[Pete MB&D]

I seems to me their aim was to pick up a drunk girl and have sex with her, not a nice thing to do, but is it rape? that's the difficult thing to work out as it depends on how drunk the girl was.

Pete

 

[lutyens10]

I am very sorry , but if my daughter when she grows up [ currently 11] told me that I would blame myself and her not the men involved . I may be being niave and over exagerating my parenting skills , as i have had girlfriends who have told me the same thing .

We need to separate here Rape as a criminal offence from sexual relations between young men and young women in 21 century Britain.

they are not the same thing . Many aspects of young peoples sexual relations are unsavory , dysfunctional , pathetic and in some cases morally wrong , that does not make it rape .

I wasn't looking for any sympathy but I am not sure how I need to blame myself or her? Nor did i intend or will I to go into detail! This issue is about a man demanding/'persuading' someone have sex. In the two instances she felt it safer to say yes than deal with the alternative. If she felt that she could have said no and it would have been respected then she would have said no. I would consider what happened rape! She was very distraught about both instances. She has dealt with it, and frankly only just, by believing that by saying yes rather than no she was being pragmatic and saving herself from something worse. This was not a sexual relation she wanted! And it would never have happened if she felt safe saying no. The only person making her feel unsafe was a man.

And have i ever had a 'drunken shag'? No, never, ever. The idea of doing something you or someone else may regret in the morning is enough of a reason never to do such a thing. I simply cannot see how it should be otherwise if you have any respect for someone else or frankly for yourself.

 

[SteveG]

This issue is about a man demanding/'persuading' someone have sex. In the two instances she felt it safer to say yes than deal with the alternative. If she felt that she could have said no and it would have been respected then she would have said no. I would consider what happened rape!

So would the law, if it was determined that consent was given under duress.

 

[Arkless Electronics]

There are some holier than thou prigs posting here....

 

[Mescalito]

There are some holier than thou prigs posting here....

+1

Chris

 

[oldie]

Oldham has another football player one sponsor already pulled out

oldie

 

[Daniel Quinn]

Come on Oldham.

Meat pie Sausage roll. Not long now before chedwyn scores a goal.

They will only lose one sponsor and that is a tin pot company using it as an excuse.

Of course the irony is it is only a matter of time before he buggers of elsewhere.

And how can Oldham afford 2.5k a week.

 

[deanf]

It seems his future father in law is friends with the club owner and is considering financially supporting Evans' employment. Of everyone, I would have thought he would most want Evans out of his life (regardless of guilt or innocence)!

 

[Greg]

He said 'drunken shag' Greg, no one is condoning or advocating shagging comatose women.
While we're here it's worth remembering women do like to get laid too you know, the entire male population aren't neanderthal predators.

Consent(if you've both been drinking),anything less than in writing is now very risky IMO. The amounts people seem to consume these days is also quite worrying-getting hammered is now the norm.

and I said if she was "out cold.."

Attitudes and norms shift over time. In terms of case precedent the Ched Evans case seems to very close to the cusp between what some people think is consent and what others don't. It's healthy to discuss the practical reality if cases such as this differ from the perceptions of some men. Whatever each individual thinks in terms of where the line is between legal and illegal, their opinion may be of little consequence if they find themself subject to a legal complaint. It's got zero to do with being "holier than thou".

On the other hand, as the father of four daughters I'm naturally alert to risks they face and possibly more conscious than some other men of how women might look at this. It also makes life easier for me if my zip-tie / masking tape / axe / spade kit remains unused through the sensible decision-making of their potential suitors.

 

[Arkless Electronics]

and I said if she was "out cold.."

Attitudes and norms shift over time. In terms of case precedent the Ched Evans case seems to very close to the cusp between what some people think is consent and what others don't. It's healthy to discuss the practical reality if cases such as this differ from the perceptions of some men. Whatever each individual thinks in terms of where the line is between legal and illegal, their opinion may be of little consequence if they find themself subject to a legal complaint. It's got zero to do with being "holier than thou".

On the other hand, as the father of four daughters I'm naturally alert to risks they face and possibly more conscious than some other men of how women might look at this. It also makes life easier for me if my zip-tie / masking tape / axe / spade kit remains unused through the sensible decision-making of their potential suitors.

Obviously not fecking out cold!!!!

 

[gassor]

They will only lose one sponsor and that is a tin pot company using it as an excuse.

Its a daft decision for the club and they will regret it. Two sponsors so far have pulled out and an official announcement has not yet been made.

And as we know, money talks and bullsh*t walks.

 

[strummer]

I have absolutely no idea as to the validity of the claims that the "victim" made certain Twitter entries, which she attempted to delete. I've never used Twitter & don't understand it. The author of this piece claims that they are there to find, with the right IT skills


WARNING!!! I've broken the link in case this breaks AUP.

http://www DOT corestore.org/lc.htm


On Ched Evans' official website, they claim they didn't have access to these tweets at time of trial.
http://www.chedevans.com/


It is also alleged this girl attempted a similar complaint against a rugby player.