Zyx or Ortofon
- Thread starter oldius
- Start date
Good advice in my opinion. The Glider is a good cartridge, ticks all he boxes and is (for cartridges) fairly priced. Several of my friens use them, on good decks, and seem delighted.
As for the Nottingam analogue 12inch arm; don't know it, but I would suggest that the longer arms usually sound silkier and smoother, sweeter, than their 9inch cousins. But a bit less dynamic. Horses for courses.
Mike Reed
pfm Member
Not sure I follow this. If the Airy ticks all the boxes why does it sound broken compared to a Koetsu (which Koetsu?).
....'So DO (does) all the other £3.5K' cart's.......... Do you have an axe to grind? Is The Airy really in that bracket? Either your syntax etc. gives a misleading impression or overnight dementia has set in at this end...
sonddek
Trade: SUPATRAC
That was my understanding. A piece of kit can have great bass, treble, midrange, separation, detail, clarity, extension, dynamics, soundstage, flat response, you name it, but in the end you want to go down the pub. It ticks all of the boxes except the musically addictive one. It's disconcerting sometimes because it's hard to explain how something which sounds so right can be so boring, and why it doesn't allow you to sit back and get carried away by the music.
I have no experience of ZYX BTW, so I'm not attributing this defect to any particular piece of kit. Right now.
I have no experience of ZYX BTW, so I'm not attributing this defect to any particular piece of kit. Right now.
I use one, so I am prejudiced, but I find that a modern Koetsu is pretty remarkable in many ways (sadly, including the price.) They are not the 'bloated' 'overwarm' cartridges of popular cliche (in truth, they never were). The sad thing is that these cartridges are so hard to compare....people are expected to spend a lot of money without being able to gain first-hand experience. Which says to me....poor service justifies a discount.
Paraheadache
pfm Member
My jubilee has kept me out of the pub for years. love it.
Sorry was late. Koetsu Black Goldline. Though I can find no real fault with the zyx, it just doesn't make me want to listen to more like the Koetsu does.
The Airy was $2,600 when I bought it so not exactly cheap.
At the end of the day I find 3.5K for a cartridge pretty ridiculous unless you have money to burn
The Airy was $2,600 when I bought it so not exactly cheap.
At the end of the day I find 3.5K for a cartridge pretty ridiculous unless you have money to burn
Mike Reed
pfm Member
Sorry was late. Koetsu Black Goldline. Though I can find no real fault with the zyx, it just doesn't make me want to listen to more like the Koetsu does.
The Airy was $2,600 when I bought it so not exactly cheap.
At the end of the day I find 3.5K for a cartridge pretty ridiculous unless you have money to burn
I'd say that was around the price for the Black, so it's an even stevens comparison (assuming prices are similarly comparative in the States). Having lived with a Black (Goldline) for two years, I can empathise with your findings.
However, having gone to a Urushi Vermilion, presumably in your '3.5K' ($ or £s?) range, I can assure you, as far as my and my friend's Lyra experience is concerned, that you 'gets what you pays for'. The Urushi is way ahead of the Goldline in detail retrieval, image width, involvement and subtlety (of course) as the Titan i is way ahead of its stablemates.
You don't say WHY you think high end (i.e. expensive) cart's are ridiculous; presumably it's from experience rather than whimsical fantasy.
Hmmn, difference being Mike I paid $600 or about £440 by the time it landed for the newly rebuilt by Koetsu, Koetsu!
Maybe I've just heard 3.5K cartridges in the wrong systems, all very expensive ones that
I couldn't give house room to, even if I could afford them for the same reasons I don't particularly like the ZYX, I'm not interested in analyzing the hifi bits, just want something that makes me want to listen to more albums.
I'd also suggest that unless the table/arm/cartridge and phono-stage have a synergy, it's all a moot point in any case.
Having hear Benz Gliders in PU3, Ekos, Aro, PU 2, WTA & a few Kuzmas, I doubt I could ever justify spending more. Saying that a Grado in a PU 2 had me wondering why I'd ever spent more in the first place?
For interests sake it's Koetsu/Kuzma Stogi/Oracle & ZYX/J7 rewired Zeta on a fully funked Linn.
A loaned PU 7/Audio Note IO on my monster Lenco suggested changes are afoot though
Maybe I've just heard 3.5K cartridges in the wrong systems, all very expensive ones that
I couldn't give house room to, even if I could afford them for the same reasons I don't particularly like the ZYX, I'm not interested in analyzing the hifi bits, just want something that makes me want to listen to more albums.
I'd also suggest that unless the table/arm/cartridge and phono-stage have a synergy, it's all a moot point in any case.
Having hear Benz Gliders in PU3, Ekos, Aro, PU 2, WTA & a few Kuzmas, I doubt I could ever justify spending more. Saying that a Grado in a PU 2 had me wondering why I'd ever spent more in the first place?
For interests sake it's Koetsu/Kuzma Stogi/Oracle & ZYX/J7 rewired Zeta on a fully funked Linn.
A loaned PU 7/Audio Note IO on my monster Lenco suggested changes are afoot though
Mike Reed
pfm Member
That has to be one of the cartridge bargains of the century ! That price would get you one here needing a re-tip at least. A full Koetsu overhaul would not be economically viable, i.m.o. And the Goldline is much more tonally 'modern' than the old Blacks.
I might be able to help with this because last year a friend and I auditioned a retipped Urushi (not by Koetsu) against a Glider. The Glider sounded 'fresher' and more life like. Also had a better bass and wasd generally a more convincing cartridge. We both agreed on that, no contest.
Then he bought the Urushi......such is the mystique of the name!
Mike Reed
pfm Member
Your observations, as a U owner hold water with me, so this is interesting, as I'm looking for a different kind of spare. Can you remember the deck/arm etc. you heard these in? Is there just the one Glider? Other contenders (Trans, Shelter) have too high an output for my taste.
The Glider comes in Lo(0.4), Hi or medium outputs. My Koetsu was rebuilt by Koetsu and unused,the Glider was a brand new one I had as a spare.
The Glider mounted on a Kuzma Stogi S/Oracle gave very little away to the Koetsu or ZYX but then oimo, the Gliders seem to mate particularly well with unipivots.
Certainly sounding a bit 'lighter/faster' than the Black.
Unfortunately lack of funds meant the Glider/Stogi S had to go which was a shame as for a vfm combo, it was an extremely capable pairing.
Never understood reviews suggesting the Gliders are cold as I always found them just a tad the warmer side of neutral, not by much but just enough to stop them sounding sterile/clinical.
On the zyx front, they are very light cartridges and the silver bases which add weight should be viewed as necessary rather than an option. They tend to work better in fairly high mass arms. Having J7 make additional/alternative weights for a wta, PU 3 & Kuzma Stogi S improved the sound in every case. The cantilever design also makes them a pure pig to clean as they seem to be a magnet for any dust on the records and it's not recommended to use any kind of fluid, so it's a two edged sword.
The Glider mounted on a Kuzma Stogi S/Oracle gave very little away to the Koetsu or ZYX but then oimo, the Gliders seem to mate particularly well with unipivots.
Certainly sounding a bit 'lighter/faster' than the Black.
Unfortunately lack of funds meant the Glider/Stogi S had to go which was a shame as for a vfm combo, it was an extremely capable pairing.
Never understood reviews suggesting the Gliders are cold as I always found them just a tad the warmer side of neutral, not by much but just enough to stop them sounding sterile/clinical.
On the zyx front, they are very light cartridges and the silver bases which add weight should be viewed as necessary rather than an option. They tend to work better in fairly high mass arms. Having J7 make additional/alternative weights for a wta, PU 3 & Kuzma Stogi S improved the sound in every case. The cantilever design also makes them a pure pig to clean as they seem to be a magnet for any dust on the records and it's not recommended to use any kind of fluid, so it's a two edged sword.
Mike Reed
pfm Member
Well, this is salutary and worthwhile info., certainly as far as I'm concerned. Received wisdom is an imprecise form of learning, so back-up details of ancillary kit add hugely to this learning curve. However, using two effectively new cart's as an assessment tool is possibly questionable, as both cart's will exhibit different qualities as they are run in for thirty plus hours or so.
The Glider has, unfortunetely (for me), an output of about 0.6 mV (equates to 0.4 mV @ 3.54 cms/sec). About the same as the Black, many Transfigurations and Shelters.
When I recently reintroduced my Goldline to my A.A. 12" arm after getting used to a Urushi Vermilion (0.34 ish mV @5 cms/sec) my wife and I were initially knocked out by the gutsy, lively and encompassing sound which greeted us; the subtleties and musical nuances of the Urushi were temporarily forgotten. However, upping the volume control (on my NAP 552) brought an overly powerful presentation, negating the feisty benefits. Conversely, I can up my vol. control with the Urushi almost 'til the cows come home, improving dynamics with no downside.
This is, of course, somewhat affected by the phono stage (Superline/Supercap), which is technically up to 0.5mV (but with a large overload margin, of course). Balancing qualities of cart., phono stage and output, I'm now convinced, as many others are, of the superior musical benefits of a slightly lower output (though I draw the line at an IO
).It does piss me off that so many cart's come with meaningless output figures, often omitting the standard against which they are measured (American etc. or British (European?)). 3.54 cms/sec. or 5 cms/sec.. Why this was not standardised donkey's years ago is beyond me.
I think we all know that a £700 Glider is unlikely to better a £4000 Urushi, although the whole vfm thing is pretty stark at this level. In fact value for money becomes largely meaningless. The odd thing (to me) is that I ended up glad I had bought a Urushi, as it thrills me every time. And it tracks superbly too.
As for output, I use a Music First step-up which allows you to vary both gain and loading into the preamp mm section. So you can use 5db, 10, db, or 20db, with six different loadings for each.The gain does seem to make a real difference but there are limits to how much experimenting I will do. I do seem to prefer lowish gain (10db) into about 100ohms. The big difference is if you use 47k.
As for output, I use a Music First step-up which allows you to vary both gain and loading into the preamp mm section. So you can use 5db, 10, db, or 20db, with six different loadings for each.The gain does seem to make a real difference but there are limits to how much experimenting I will do. I do seem to prefer lowish gain (10db) into about 100ohms. The big difference is if you use 47k.
Thought those step up figures looked bit odd so I had a quick look at the MFA website,
"The transformer features a split, four section primary winding which allows gain ratios of 1:5 (14dB gain), 1:10 (20dB gain) and 1:20 (26dB gain)."
so it seems you are using a x10 voltage step up, 10db would be around x3ish (I think).
Edit: Just seen the price of that step up as well, good job I was sitting down!
"The transformer features a split, four section primary winding which allows gain ratios of 1:5 (14dB gain), 1:10 (20dB gain) and 1:20 (26dB gain)."
so it seems you are using a x10 voltage step up, 10db would be around x3ish (I think).
Edit: Just seen the price of that step up as well, good job I was sitting down!
Shows how much I know about my own equipment! I stand corrected. As for price, I don't know what model you were looking at, but I haven't heard a better step=up, and I have heard quite a few that cost more.Sadly, hand made stuff made in tiny quantities will never be cheap. Unless the company wants to go bust. Another way of looking at it is to work out the resale value and assess the long-term cost of ownership.Then the figures can look rather better. Or buy second hand to start with....that has to be sensible.You can have a 'pricey' system that doesn't really cost very much in the long term, if you buy well.Done that way, it is a lot cheaper than many hobbies. Well, that is what I tell myself.It might even be true.