Wot CDP rail grease?

[The Captain]

Hi chaps,

Ive got two cdp's which skip (forward). My main cdp, roksan caspian 1, also has problems doing the innitial reading of a disc/ keeps spinning then stops.

My other cdp is a rega planet (2000). This only skips, but always seems to read a disc ok.

The roksan, my main one, Ive had for 20 years (& i think 25yrs old min) Ive always managed to do a quick fix for both symptoms: gentle-brushing the lens & adding a wee but of auto grease on the 2 rails. Almost always, it works again afterwards for ~8 months or so until same symptoms again. So I repeat.

Therefore, now I have this rega, I'm thinking I need to try some more appropriate rail grease. Can anyone suggest what type to get?

Also I've read a very experienced cd repairer suggesting 'window cleaner' for lens cleaning ( IE a tiny ammount put on a cotton bud, very delicately apply etc). Is this ok?

Thanks, Capt.

 

[martin clark]

A light silicone grease will work fine, in a plastic-safe way. you can find small tubes of this sort of thing from Servisol and the like.

Usually though, with skipping like this cleaning everything scrupulously with Q-tips and alcohol first is actually the 'fix' - then be very, very sparing with any lube you add - think of a tiny amount, and halve it...

 

[chartz]

I use Robbe silicone and Teflon grease.

 

[The Captain]

A light silicone grease will work fine, in a plastic-safe way. you can find small tubes of this sort of thing from Servisol and the like.

Usually though, with skipping like this cleaning everything scrupulously with Q-tips and alcohol first is actually the 'fix' - then be very, very sparing with any lube you add - think of a tiny amount, and halve it...

Hi Martin, great help that thanks. Will get a servisol tube.

As to the lens- do you mean isopropyl alcohol? I have some i use to make a Lp cleaner, so this stuff.. neat?

Thanks, Capt

 

[martin clark]

I've never cleaned the lens, other than blow any dust off, dry. Anything on there will be very out of focus, so unless the laser is on its way out, it'll not be the source of skipping - (at which point I doubt it'll play anything anyway, will struggle to read TOC on disc load). Marks on the CD, yes, sticking tracking drive, yes, these cause skipping issues - but dust not blatant, on the centre of the lens debris - not i.m.e.

Windowlene and sim water-based glass cleaners the like aren't going to cause any harm even on a plastic lens - so if you must: well I'd definitely use that and not alcohol (which is for cleaning the gears/worm drive on the mech. Get that spotless.)
HTH!

 

[The Captain]

I've never cleaned the lens, other than blow any dust off, dry. Anything on there will be very out of focus, so unless the laser is on its way out, it'll not be the source of skipping - (at which point I doubt it'll play anything anyway, will struggle to read TOC on disc load). Marks on the CD, yes, sticking tracking drive, yes, these cause skipping issues - but dust not blatant, on the centre of the lens debris - not i.m.e.

Windowlene and sim water-based glass cleaners the like aren't going to cause any harm even on a plastic lens - so if you must: well I'd definitely use that and not alcohol (which is for cleaning the gears/worm drive on the mech. Get that spotless.)
HTH!

Hi Martin, some info thats new to me here. Some I don't quite understand (or rather the sentence, as written, I don't understand).

Ok so I previously thought that some solution on the lens, was the idea. Isopropyl. But this isn't correct, & so this alcohol is for other areas then. Understood. I'll maybe ask where, later. It complicates things if I ask where now.

Can you do this sentence again for me, another way, as I just can't understand it written as you did: "Anything on there will be very out of focus" (I can guage that dust would likely be the 'anything'.. but then what "will be very out of focus" means.. I'm totally stumped as to making any understanding of the whole sentence). Thanks.

When you suggest a plastic silicone type grease, why plastic, as the rails Im needing surely to grease, are metal-? Maybe Ive not been clear as to what Im aiming to grease. I had thought, & my experience concurrs, that greasing the metal rail(s) can be of benefit. My roksan, I do just this. And also Ive never done anything but a light 'stylus' brush of the lens too- so Ive been doing as you suggest over the years on my caspian cdp's lens.

Thanks, Capt

 

[martin clark]

Easy bit first - the silicone will work happily for eithe plastic gears, or the chromed rails, or any other such use.

The laser beam is converged via the lens, but focussed on the silver layer in the cd to detect the nm-scale pits. Its why minor cosmetic marks on the CD don't cause issues - they have to be quite gross to do so because they are so far out of focus to the laser detector even though - many, many times larger than the pits being detected; the same is true for dust n the laser lens itself.

 

[Mike P]

To clean the lens a safe procedure is to just fog then lens with your breath and then polish dry with a clean dry cotton bud. If very dirty I use a cotton bud moistened (not soaking wet!) with window cleaning fluid and then polish dry with a fresh cotton bud. I do not recommend alcohol as it can damage the coating on some lenses.

If the laser head runs on the rails with sintered bronze bushes installed in the laser head, then use a light machine oil on the rails rather than grease. If it's plastic to metal contact then I use a light plastic safe synthetic grease designed for printers and photo copiers etc. Don't use anything too sticky.

 

[The Captain]

Easy bit first - the silicone will work happily for eithe plastic gears, or the chromed rails, or any other such use.

The laser beam is converged via the lens, but focussed on the silver layer in the cd to detect the nm-scale pits. Its why minor cosmetic marks on the CD don't cause issues - they have to be quite gross to do so because they are so far out of focus to the laser detector even though - many, many times larger than the pits being detected; the same is true for dust n the laser lens itself.

Ok got the easy bit. And I sort of understand the next bit. But apologies, still your sentence doesn't make sense.

Could you possibly rewrite this sentence for me, using slightly different wording? Then It will likely be comprehensible. (I kinda knew that the lens focusses the laser).

"Anything on there, will be very out of focus".

What is the anything, & assuming it might be dust, then your sentence continues then on to suggest this dust will be out of focus. This isn't logical, or comprehensible (if we don't ever want dust to be in focus). So then: I'm not guaging the correct meaning from this sentence.. written as it is.

It's purely the fallibility of forums, & communicating via boxes of text, not you per se Martin.

Thanks, Capt.

 

[martin clark]

Oh I see what you mean: well, its like dust on a camera lens - the impact is very much less than you might think at first
So if in doubt about potential for damage - don't clean it.

 

[Mike P]

Martin means that the focal point of the laser reading the pits is not at the surface of the CD but actually under the clear polycarbonate layer.

As an aside- An issue with some mechs is that the lower spindle bearing wears and this drops the height of the platter, so the disc is now too close to the laser. Beyond a certain point the laser can no longer focus properly. Restoring the correct running height of the platter fixes the issue.

 

[The Captain]

Oh I see what you mean: well, its like dust on a camera lens - the impact is very much less than you might think at first
So if in doubt about potential for damage - don't clean it.

Martin, I need to establish 3 things, to make sense of the sentence. I still can't.

Whatever is on there... what is this whatever possibly referring to?
On there.. on where? The lens, or the cd reading place?
Will be very out of focus.. what will?

Could you please possibly simply rephrase the sentence for me?
Write this very sentence, in another way for me?

Thanks, Capt

 

[martin clark]

The dust sat on the lens, does not affect the focus of the laser on the layer of the cd the laser is 'reading'.

 

[The Captain]

Martin means that the focal point of the laser reading the pits is not at the surface of the CD but actually under the clear polycarbonate layer.

As an aside- An issue with some mechs is that the lower spindle bearing wears and this drops the height of the platter, so the disc is now too close to the laser. Beyond a certain point the laser can no longer focus properly. Restoring the correct running height of the platter fixes the issue.

Hi Mike. understood.. crikey this must a be mm-perfect, critical dim needed then. I wouldn't know how one could attempt to even try this, as surely you'd be guessing totally blind (assuming sony, or rega wouldn't divulge such tiny details).

Just on this spindle subject though, could I ask you; is it conceivable sony could make the same transport using two slightly different spindle cd 'seats'? What I mean by a seat, is where the cd sits upon, a spinning 3cm area with a centre section protruding up into the cd centre hole to locate it centrAlly.

IE is it possible to remove the stem-and-seat section, & transfer it to another otherwise identical transport?

You see rega, cannot be contacted (to see if there's a new transport I can buy). Cheshire Audio, kindly replied to me saying they think the transport is the same as the Apollo. Thing is, they look identical players, but for one thing: the way the cd sits upon the 'seat': on the Apollo you press down a cd & it clicks/ locks ontothe seat. But the Planet.. you rest the cd on the seat.. & the lid adds an additional clamp above, which must do the locating function.

Otherwise... I think the two transports, might be identical. SO could I just swap my Planet seat section I wonder.. onto a new Apollo transport.. is my thinking.

Thanks for reading, Capt

 

[The Captain]

The dust sat on the lens, does not affect the focus of the laser on the layer of the cd the laser is 'reading'.

Right thanks, Im a bit closer to understanding what you meant.

Ok, so any dust, becuase the laser isn't aimed to focus at this lens point, isn't likely to be the cause of skipping, because the laser sort of 'bypasses' it-?? This is as close to how I can interpret the sentence. I don't think it's close enough though.

If so, then Im now at a position that you seem to be contradicting what was said earlier, that being dust on the lens is ((as you said near post 1)) almost always the likely culprit of skipping/ the first port of call to address.

As such Im totally confused by your posts. Sorry, again it's not you, it's just the incredibly frustrating aspect of ambiguity within english. I bet arabic or farsi.. would mitigate against this.

 

[Mike P]

Hi Mike. understood.. crikey this must a be mm-perfect, critical dim needed then. I wouldn't know how one could attempt to even try this, as surely you'd be guessing totally blind (assuming sony, or rega wouldn't divulge such tiny details).

Just on this spindle subject though, could I ask you; is it conceivable sony could make the same transport using two slightly different spindle cd 'seats'? What I mean by a seat, is where the cd sits upon, a spinning 3cm area with a centre section protruding up into the cd centre hole to locate it centrAlly.

IE is it possible to remove the stem-and-seat section, & transfer it to another otherwise identical transport?

You see rega, cannot be contacted (to see if there's a new transport I can buy). Cheshire Audio, kindly replied to me saying they think the transport is the same as the Apollo. Thing is, they look identical players, but for one thing: the way the cd sits upon the 'seat': on the Apollo you press down a cd & it clicks/ locks ontothe seat. But the Planet.. you rest the cd on the seat.. & the lid adds an additional clamp above, which must do the locating function.

Otherwise... I think the two transports, might be identical. SO could I just swap my Planet seat section I wonder.. onto a new Apollo transport.. is my thinking.

Thanks for reading, Capt

According to this list the Planet 2000 uses a Sony KSS-213B mech and the Apollo has a Sanyo SF-P101N.

Replacement lasers for the KSS-213B are cheap and easily obtainable.

Ideally it should be installed by someone who knows how to check and adjust the tracking gain, focus gain, EF balance etc but you may well get away with just installing it without any adjustment.

Yes it's theoretically possible to move the platter from one spindle to another but the position of the platter on the spindle is critical and unless great care is taken to get the height perfect it'll not end well. In practice it's not something you'd do unless you were attempting to replace a worn motor.

 

[The Captain]

@Mike P that's a damn useful list thanks. I had also read of this very sony transport for the Planet 2000, but just didn't know if the Apollo was the same. I know that Apollo transports.. are.. possible to source, from rega. I think via a dealer, but nevertheless a distinct possibility. Obtaining one from rega, or even contacting them at all, from me, seems impossible.

Ok. This sony KSS-213B transport is not easily obtained though. Hen's teeth. Which is why I was hoping the Apollo might be the same. As I can source this. Ok seems not the same then.

Right, now I had no idea until you mention it here, that the laser section can be separated (& replaced for a new one) from the transport. This seems like the only possible way I can get this transport working again. That is assuming the grease won't provide the remedy (I'll try first of course & get the lens clean as best I can possibly do).

There are countless 'sony KSS-213B' laser mechs, but the www info says chinese copies & just won't in a month of sundays, work. Rarely there's a genuine sony one, & if there is, it's a full transport.

When you say laser, do you mean this sort of thing.. this os a typical cheap chinese 'sony KSS-213B' which looks awful quality.. but it doesn't matter for now: Im just trying to establish what you mean by "laser":

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/26340215...d=link&campid=5338728743&toolid=20001&mkevt=1

 

[ansis]

Thing is, they look identical players, but for one thing: the way the cd sits upon the 'seat': on the Apollo you press down a cd & it clicks/ locks ontothe seat. But the Planet.. you rest the cd on the seat.. & the lid adds an additional clamp above, which must do the locating function.

Otherwise... I think the two transports, might be identical. SO could I just swap my Planet seat section I wonder.. onto a new Apollo transport.. is my thinking.

In Planet there is Sony KSS-somewhat thingy, i.e. regular cd player optics, in Apollo Rega adopted computer drive, so no, they are completely different and not interchangeable mechs.

 

[martin clark]

Captain - I might have missed a word in my first post then! Apologies - my point is as you have divined, that cleaning the laser, unless deeply obscured - is not the first thing to address. So cleaning the moving mechanical parts of the mech, will be.

In case it helps - an illustration:

https://www.researchgate.net/profil...ta-pit-pitch-and-laser-spot-dimensions-14.png

Look how abruptly-focused the laser is, the relative scale is about right as drawn - to a spot c 0.8 micron (0.0008mm). Look at the diameter of the lens involved - a few ten-microns size bits of dust have negligible effect on 'reading' the disc - and this is deliberate (also a nifty use of the laser wavelength, vs. refraction coefficients of air, and the polycarbonate used for the body of a CD etc !)

I cannot begin to convy the sense in Arabic or Farsi. Farce, much more likely - ATB.

 

[The Captain]

In Planet there is Sony KSS-somewhat thingy, i.e. regular cd player optics, in Apollo Rega adopted computer drive, so no, they are completely different and not interchangeable mechs.

Hi ansis, grateful for this information. Yes that makes sense now.. they do look a bit different. So rule is don't go on dealers' info; as kind as it was for a dealer to reply.. it wasn't actually accurate info.