Toxic is probably the wrong term but the choice of leader is key. I think overall JC makes Labour less electable.
Winter election
- Thread starter hifinutt
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glancaster
In the silicon vale
The polls look very bad for Corbyn, particularly the personal approval ratings where he gets something like -40% compared to Johnson's -10%. That's a huge mountain to climb.
Some words of caution though:
- we don't even know when this election will be
- we don't know what will happen with Brexit beforehand
- we don't know what the parties' policies going in to the election will be
- polls are a snapshot of current opinion, usually with an accuracy of +/- 3% at best. They are not future predictors, do not claim to be, and the situation is highly volatile
Anyone who despairs of Corbyn but thinks Johnson is worse (quite a large constituency here) has a difficult balancing act. On the one hand, we'd desperately like Corbyn to resign and be replaced by someone better, or at least shape up. On the other, if we constantly criticise him, we're actually helping Johnson, just a little.
Kind regards
- Garry
ks.234
Half way to Infinity
there is clearly a great deal of hostility towards Corbyn which will obviously make it unlikely that he can form a government. Much of the hostility is unfounded, especially the sort of hostility that says 'Corbyn is unpopular, so I hate him' which seems to come from people who've been heaping their venom on him, joining in with every trope, since he was elected Leader. 'I hate Corbyn, but it's his fault that I hate him, which really makes me so angry'.
If we want a different type of politics Corbyn is the only choice currently on offer. If people choose not to vote for him, as looks likely, we'll just have more of the same.
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lordsummit
Moderator
I do sympathise, but, I also despair. There’d be no shame in him saying it’s someone else’s turn. He’s alienated too many people, and has appeared ineffectual all too often. No-one will elect a leader they view as ineffectual unless there has been a blocker that caused the ineffectiveness. The Bullingdon Buffoon seems to be very clearly making Corbyn that blocker, and he seems to falling into that trap. A cleverer more convincing performer like Starmer would probably make a clearer case.
I think his interminable fence sitting has left him holed beneath the water. That’s my 2p anyway.
Tony L
Administrator
Many of us want ‘a different kind of politics’, but sadly we have seen Corbyn in action for over three years now, and he obviously isn’t of the required calibre to move things forward. He has proven entirely unable to take a coherent moral leadership position on the greatest issue facing the country for a generation and has has failed to organise his MPs, and even to root racism out of the fringes of his party. He has just proven utterly inept and indecisive in the face of every challenge.
For the second time in my adult life the Labour Party has been found to be entirely missing in action in face of a highly destructive Tory Party. I can almost understand the three-term epic failure against Thatcher as what she brought was new and untried at the time. Corbyn is managing to fail against that same old shit plus an obvious rise in far-right white ethnic nationalism, which should be a slam-dunk for any credible left of centre party to counter. To obviously lose against something so utterly repugnant really takes some quite spectacular ineptitude, indecision and lack of leadership qualities, and sadly Corbyn is just that man. Next leader please.
glancaster
In the silicon vale
My advice to Corbyn/Labour FWIW:
1. Corbyn to resign for 'health reasons'. In public, no more detail need be given. In private: 'I resigned because it would break my heart to lose another election.'
2. Rapid replacement with 'safe pair of hands' consensus candidate. I like Starmer, but I don't think he has quite the killer instinct required for leadership. Almost anyone would provide a fresh face at this point. Someone like Hilary Benn would be my choice. On Brexit, he's already been doing the job of party leader recently, effectively.
3. Brexit: before election, pivot to pushing for referendum on current deal, supporting remain option. After election announced, make it simple: support revoke. Early in the campaign, make a clear apology for your part in whole debacle, emphasising that the critical thing is to do the right thing now for the nation, regardless of what has gone before, and you are asking people to vote for you now on that clear understanding.
4. Other policies: gently sideline the more extreme ones 'for a second term'. The general public will not give you permission for them now and the true believers will vote Labour anyway. You might squeeze a few in your first term anyway if all going swimmingly -- not everything has to be in a manifesto.
5. General demeanour: Johnson and his team will try to provoke with an onslaught of anger. Respond with calm firmness, and don't be shy to point out Johnson's manifest failures, but do not go down to their level. Remain positive on balance. Remember that you need to convince some people who are considering voting Tory to vote for you instead, so don't needlessly antagonise general Tory-ness.
6. PR: clear messages, that can be delivered with conviction on the doorstep. Learn to use Facebook as effectively as Cummings does.
Kind regards
- Garry
1. Corbyn to resign for 'health reasons'. In public, no more detail need be given. In private: 'I resigned because it would break my heart to lose another election.'
2. Rapid replacement with 'safe pair of hands' consensus candidate. I like Starmer, but I don't think he has quite the killer instinct required for leadership. Almost anyone would provide a fresh face at this point. Someone like Hilary Benn would be my choice. On Brexit, he's already been doing the job of party leader recently, effectively.
3. Brexit: before election, pivot to pushing for referendum on current deal, supporting remain option. After election announced, make it simple: support revoke. Early in the campaign, make a clear apology for your part in whole debacle, emphasising that the critical thing is to do the right thing now for the nation, regardless of what has gone before, and you are asking people to vote for you now on that clear understanding.
4. Other policies: gently sideline the more extreme ones 'for a second term'. The general public will not give you permission for them now and the true believers will vote Labour anyway. You might squeeze a few in your first term anyway if all going swimmingly -- not everything has to be in a manifesto.
5. General demeanour: Johnson and his team will try to provoke with an onslaught of anger. Respond with calm firmness, and don't be shy to point out Johnson's manifest failures, but do not go down to their level. Remain positive on balance. Remember that you need to convince some people who are considering voting Tory to vote for you instead, so don't needlessly antagonise general Tory-ness.
6. PR: clear messages, that can be delivered with conviction on the doorstep. Learn to use Facebook as effectively as Cummings does.
Kind regards
- Garry
ff1d1l
pfm Member
Also having a leader who doesn't represent the view of 62 percent of voters for your party, let alone the much higher figure within the membership of that party, is not going to fly.
Hasn't flown.
droodzilla
pfm Member
Lewis Goodall's take:
https://news.sky.com/story/amp/sky-...-brexit-resolution-easier-to-achieve-11842604
Pretty sound, I reckon.
Have an election as soon as No Deal is off the table, ideally after Christmas.
https://news.sky.com/story/amp/sky-...-brexit-resolution-easier-to-achieve-11842604
Pretty sound, I reckon.
Have an election as soon as No Deal is off the table, ideally after Christmas.
SteveS1
I heard that, pardon?
A thoughtful piece, but I think an election is unlikely to provide much clarity, unless someone stuffs up as May did.
Seanm
pfm Member
Same last time though. Nervous Nellies the PLP, need a lot of reassuring.
Seanm
pfm Member
Has Johnson so far done anything except stuff up?
ff1d1l
pfm Member
How do you think a johnson campaign might compare with may's last time? Do you think those who were won over to vote labour might be this time won over by the constructive ambiguity of labours position?
In short are the two comparable?
And if yes, is the comparison favourable to labour?
Remain - Lets Get On With It.
SteveS1
I heard that, pardon?
No, not to any reasonable observer. May managed to do it for the unreasonable as well.
ks.234
Half way to Infinity
If you want more of the same, you’ll get it unless you vote for Corbyn
That's a very cunning plan.
Really? Johnson wants an election so do the opposite. Since becoming PM everything your glorious leader has touched has turned to shit. Will you be joining the search parties looking in ditches next week?
Most of what you say is true, although it's also a failure of a dim and deceived electorate. While corbyn may have failed to finish off a weak government, he faces an almost impossible task in the face of the media, in particular the right wing press.
But I agree he's had his time and regretfully someone new needs to take charge.
As for Johnson f@cking up in the campaign. Someone once said ‘events my dear boy’. Isn’t that London assembly probe into Johnson and the pole dancer still going on? Isn’t Johnson’s wife (the one who threw him out) remarkably quiet? What about his girlfriend who he obviously has a tempestuous relationship with. Is she ready to cash in her pension plan yet? Then there’s Johnson’s daughter (not much younger than his girlfriend) who refuses to speak to him. Add to that Johnson’s underlying sexism and racism and you have a powder keg that could blow any time.
Not forgetting the ditch of course.
Not forgetting the ditch of course.
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