Why is a streamer needed in 2022 ?

[Allaboutmusic]

You raise too many issues to generate any meaningful discussion IMO: Ease of use of streamer as appliance vs other solutions, what matters for sound in a dac is it only the d/a chip, the importance of operating system's generation in a closed appliance, is numerical fidelity the only thing to seek in a dac etc. etc,.

Whilst I agree the dac is the bigger difference between streamer and dac (either separate or internal) it is not only the chip that makes the difference it’s also the implementation. The dacs output quality will also be a result of the analogue output stage and power supply. Additionally a noisy streamer will impact the performance of the dac.

for me I use a raspberry pi4 running volumio software which is optimised / purpose designed for audio playback. Streaming mostly via Tidal connect but also use internet radio via volumio and have some music on a usb drive. Cost around £100 to setup. The pi is great as it is essentially a single purpose computer with no moving parts and thus a low noise source. I run it via usb to a rega dac r which has a linear power supply, dual dac chips creating a buffer stage and galvanicly isolated asynchronous usb, so essentially removing any residual noise and allowing the clock in the dac to handle the timing rather than the streamer / pi. The dac has a class A output stage too.

so my point is the dac will make the biggest difference but it’s more than just the chip. Also a good streamer can be cheap but you can still get high jitter, high noise sources which will impact the dacs performance, particularly depending on the dac design as some will be more susceptible to noise.

 

[JezmondTutu]

I’ve definitely heard differences between different disc players and also different streaming solutions into the same DAC. I heard a significant improvement adding a quality linear power supply to my streamer, so am not sold on the idea that all streamers into the same DAC sound the same. They simply don’t.

 

[Alex S]

Yes I have performed the unsighted comparisons, same data through the same dac unsurprisingly sounds identical.
Keith

Sorry, I clearly didn't phrase my request correctly. I knew what experiences you would share: what methodology, which streamers, which dacs, what data, otherwise, as stated, it's just another anecdote.

 

[S-Man]

Unless you add some controls your experience is I am afraid just anecdote.
Keith

Here's my anecdote...

I built my own PS for my streamer, it improved the sound compared to a standard SMPS wallwart. I modified my LPS several times and heard changes, some better some worse, and eventually settled on a particular configuration.

Every now and again I try the SMPS and every time it sounds considerably worse. It would actually be convenient in terms of power wastage and size to use the SMPS but it's just too much of a downgrade in sound to live with.

End of anecdote.


From the technical point of view my findings make no sense. My DAC is fed by an SMPS downstream of the LPS. I have tried replacing this with an LPS and preferred the SMPS, which is good because it's hugely more convenient.


Long term satisfaction is the correct metric IMHO. Blind testing is a very blunt instrument and A/B testing is fraught with pitfalls.

 

[Purité Audio]

Sorry, I clearly didn't phrase my request correctly. I knew what experiences you would share: what methodology, which streamers, which dacs, what data, otherwise, as stated, it's just another anecdote.

Surely you must be aware of the methodology by now, you must change only one variable at a time, the outputs of both if necessary has to be level matched, you must not be aware of which is playing, if you can reliably ‘pick’ one then you have established there is indeed a difference.
Re kit over the years I have tried and had built everything, stripped down OS, linear power supplies, JCat and Sotm output cards, almost every playback software, including, Amarra, XX Hiend , HQ player, JRiver, Current;y Roon Nucleus and Lumin streamers.
I have a milli-volt meter here you are more than welcome to borrow it, perceived difference once compared unsighted do tend to disappear, but without any controls cognitive bias takes over.
Keith

 

[say it as it is]

I have very little experience in this area tried a CCA briefly easy enough to use but felt lifeless and flat compared to CD in my system at least.
On a tight budget I pick up used kit so have a node 2 not the i just the 2 and a Rega DAC to try.
What I did find out was it's all about the source standard Amazon music is not great SKY is pants well the music channels at least.
Decided to wait and try a decent platform with better quality streams

 

[Paul Hindle]

I find them very useful for cooking vegetables. Sorry?…….What?……

 

[omers]

Whilst I agree the dac is the bigger difference between streamer and dac (either separate or internal) it is not only the chip that makes the difference it’s also the implementation. The dacs output quality will also be a result of the analogue output stage and power supply. Additionally a noisy streamer will impact the performance of the dac.

for me I use a raspberry pi4 running volumio software which is optimised / purpose designed for audio playback. Streaming mostly via Tidal connect but also use internet radio via volumio and have some music on a usb drive. Cost around £100 to setup. The pi is great as it is essentially a single purpose computer with no moving parts and thus a low noise source. I run it via usb to a rega dac r which has a linear power supply, dual dac chips creating a buffer stage and galvanicly isolated asynchronous usb, so essentially removing any residual noise and allowing the clock in the dac to handle the timing rather than the streamer / pi. The dac has a class A output stage too.

so my point is the dac will make the biggest difference but it’s more than just the chip. Also a good streamer can be cheap but you can still get high jitter, high noise sources which will impact the dacs performance, particularly depending on the dac design as some will be more susceptible to noise.

Agree, I was just summarizing the OP's scattered views.

 

[Alex S]

Thanks for answering half my question, Keith. I'll leave it there.

 

[camverton]

Surely you must be aware of the methodology by now, you must change only one variable at a time, the outputs of both if necessary has to be level matched, you must not be aware of which is playing, if you can reliably ‘pick’ one then you have established there is indeed a difference.
Re kit over the years I have tried and had built everything, stripped down OS, linear power supplies, JCat and Sotm output cards, almost every playback software, including, Amarra, XX Hiend , HQ player, JRiver, Current;y Roon Nucleus and Lumin streamers.
I have a milli-volt meter here you are more than welcome to borrow it, perceived difference once compared unsighted do tend to disappear, but without any controls cognitive bias takes over.
Keith

Great anecdote, thank you. Two points; your test relies on aural memory, not the most reliable thing, and if you believe there won’t be a difference, cognitive bias takes over and you won’t hear a difference. So, interesting anecdote and opinion but doesn’t really prove anything for anyone else.

 

[Purité Audio]

Echoic memory is only good for a few seconds, hence the Harman ‘shuffler’ so you have to switch instantly, you are correct I am less likely to hear a change so I always asked a colleague, spouse or wife/child to also compare while I switched.
Alex I would gladly answer the other half of your question if I knew what it was.
Belief is very powerful and impossible to argue against, but if you actually try a comparison with the very minimum of controls…
Keith

 

[Alex S]

Keith, rigour is all I was after, product names was the other half, streamers, dacs. But not to worry, I’m effectively arguing with myself (see first reply in this thread). I use a MacBook into a well engineered dac.

you are correct I am less likely to hear a change so I always asked a colleague, spouse or wife/child to also compare while I switched.

There was so little change even my wife couldn’t hear it. Excellent

 

[TheFlash]

Apologies for not reading every single post here (I've perused 3 of 6 pages, honest).

I use a Bluesound Node 2i, albeit now a heavily pimped one. I love the interface. However, an important (to me) aspect of using any streaming device is how stuff (music) actually gets to the DAC. Is the device merely acting as a remote control, directing traffic which does not pass through it? Or is it in the music "supply chain" itself, via wifi or the dreaded Bluetooth?

If I set a playlist running on my phone/tablet and then switch it off the music will keep playing; if in your chosen setup it doesn't then you might want to reassure yourself that you know what each component, and each connection between components, is bringing to the party.

 

[Nickdubai]

Apologies for not reading every single post here (I've perused 3 of 6 pages, honest).

I use a Bluesound Node 2i, albeit now a heavily pimped one. I love the interface. However, an important (to me) aspect of using any streaming device is how stuff (music) actually gets to the DAC. Is the device merely acting as a remote control, directing traffic which does not pass through it? Or is it in the music "supply chain" itself, via wifi or the dreaded Bluetooth?

If I set a playlist running on my phone/tablet and then switch it off the music will keep playing; if in your chosen setup it doesn't then you might want to reassure yourself that you know what each component, and each connection between components, is bringing to the party.

I guess my current setup in my office couldn't be simpler, Tablet connected via a USB C to USB B cable to a DAC which happens to be part of a powered speaker, my Kilpsch 5s. What I don't know is what processing happens inside the tablet from QoBuzz app/web player to the USB port. I don't have any special USB Audio software on my tablet, should I? USB Audio Pro only seems to be available for my phone device.

The weird thing is that I prefer the webplayer rather than the app. On a separate but related issue, going back a few years I used to find that older versions of android what hit and miss as to whether you could get tablet/phone to connect to the DAC, even for the same setup sometimes it recognized the DAC and other times it didn't, this seem mostly before the advent of USB C though.

 

[TheFlash]

Not sure the tablet itself will be doing very much “processing” at all: it’s digital in and digital out and is probably 100% bit-perfect. There’s arguably something about noise from the tablet reaching the DAC but that’s about it I think.

 

[TheFlash]

I have very little experience in this area tried a CCA briefly easy enough to use but felt lifeless and flat compared to CD in my system at least.
On a tight budget I pick up used kit so have a node 2 not the i just the 2 and a Rega DAC to try.
What I did find out was it's all about the source standard Amazon music is not great SKY is pants well the music channels at least.
Decided to wait and try a decent platform with better quality streams

The Node 2 and 2i sound the same. I think the internal DAC of the latter might handle MQA but that’s it. If you like or don’t like the 2, no point in “upgrading” to the 2i.

 

[say it as it is]

The Node 2 and 2i sound the same. I think the internal DAC of the latter might handle MQA but that’s it. If you like or don’t like the 2, no point in “upgrading” to the 2i.

As far as I know the WiFi module was upgraded, not an issue as I will be hard wiring

 

[Cote Dazur]

Why do I need a streamer in 2022 when I can simply plug, pretty much any phone, tablet

Thank you for this thread, I was puzzled by the same interrogation. I am streaming from my iPad either to airplay or Bluetooth, depending on what I am streaming to. After reading the mostly funny justifications for using a dedicated streamer in this thread, I am not wondering anymore.
A iPad, or tablet, is the best way to go as far as considération on practical, low cost and quality.

 

[Del monaco]

I got a Squeezebox Touch. Cost me £69. Cheaper than an IPad and other quality tablets. Also more versatile when you add the free LMS server. It’s own internal Dac is good enough and you’d have to spend a good deal more to see a difference. No contest really IMO. A Pi3b with LMS and a Dac hat will also offer equally good performance.
If you have an old laptop lying around you can use Vortexbox or Daphile to convert it into a ripper/server/ player. Just add a cheap dac(2nd hand if you wish) and you’ve got another solution that challenges the above assertions.

 

[Nickdubai]

Thank you for this thread, I was puzzled by the same interrogation. I am streaming from my iPad either to airplay or Bluetooth, depending on what I am streaming to. After reading the mostly funny justifications for using a dedicated streamer in this thread, I am not wondering anymore.
A iPad, or tablet, is the best way to go as far as considération on practical, low cost and quality.

I guess this hobby is a bit like buying a Rolex, in your heart of hearts you know that it ain't going to any more accurate at telling the time than a 20 quid quartz digital timex and probably worse but hey ho...