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Why have actives not made bigger inroads in to HiFi?

How do you know it's accurate if you don't know what you are comparing it to? Idiotic notion

The software does it for you. Pretty idiotic isn't it.:rolleyes:
Did you miss the part where I said that "Listening to accuracy is more tricky but there are problems that one can identify through listening assessment"

so by that logic you could tell how 'accurate' a copy of the Mona Lisa is without reverting to the original?

Good question.



Subjective assessment of playback performance (through listening) is indeed much more difficult than evaluating the accurate reproduction of still or moving images.

My guess is that the visual references are far more common and more readily available for direct comparison, although for absolute accuracy one will have to resort to a display calibration system (and perhaps the visual cortex is more developed?).

Colour frequency accuracy is just easier to determine than sound frequency accuracy, and perhaps less influenced by taste.

I would say that sound resolution is perhaps more obvious but some types of distortion such as exaggerated high mids and treble can give the wrong impression of resolution (whilst spoiling the tonal balance which can be compared to colour balance in visual terms).

For sound you'll also need solid references of both live sound (what instruments and voices actually sound like in reality) as well as reproduced sound (one must educate oneself on what is possible to achieve in domestic reproduction).

The goal of a hi-fi system is to reproduce in the domestic environment the sound signals stored in a physical or dematerialised medium with the highest possible accuracy.

blowup1.jpg

"Blow-Up" - Michelangelo Antonioni, 1966

Let's draw a parallel with photography.

Imagine you wish to reproduce Edward Hopper's painting "Nighthwaks" and distribute the resulting poster so that it can be displayed in a domestic environment.
First you must position the painting under adequate lighting (neutral in tone, even in distribution) and parallel to the camera's sensor.
(with sound you'd be adequately positioning the musicians or instruments and the pair of microphones in relation to each other and the room for the best balance)

Next you will choose a lens that produces the lowest distortion possible and a high resolution camera, place them on a tripod, use a grey card for white balance referencing, measure the light with a high performance light meter (and perhaps bracket), set the camera to RAW capture, the lowest ISO and use a self timer or remote to trigger the shutter.
(with sound this would be the microphones, mic pre-amps and A/D converter).

how-to-correct-lense-distortion-with-photoshop7.png

Geometric distortion

Chromatic_aberration_(comparison).jpg

Chromatic aberration

canon_vs_tokina_tele_corner.jpg

Corner sharpness comparison at different apertures

350px-Highimgnoise.jpg

High ISO digital noise

After the image has been captured it will then be processed in a specialised software like Photoshop and subsequently sent to reproduction/printing.
(in audio this would be the mixing/editing and mastering phases).

But the final stage, printing, also requires fidelity or accuracy and the best results will be achieved with the used of a wide-gamut printer and colour profiles that will match the image you see on screen with the colour tables of the printer.
(this is the hi-fi system).

calibrated2.png

Display calibration system


The problem for us is that identifying sound accuracy through listening is much more difficult than using our vision for an image...


"Nighthawks" - Edward Hopper, 1942


Relying on measurements from Stereophile to judge wether a speaker is any good or not(as you have previously stated) is again just foolish, ie what range of measurement/parameters are audible, have a direct impact on listening impressions etc etc etc..?. again to make the point, two speakers can measure very similarly but sound completely different. Measurements will only take you so far, eg try swapping caps in a speaker crossover and witness the sometimes dramatic difference in perceived quality (with zero impact on measurements).

Which measurements are you talking about and what do you mean by "measure very similarly"?
There's a bucketful of measurements that you can perform to a speaker and I've never seen a pair that "measure very similarly" in all parameters.
Besides, there are aspects of the topology and construction that need to be taken into account; even looking at a speaker will provide important information.

Greg Timbers; "I am a firm believer that there is no magic in loudspeaker design, but I also strongly believe that we do not have all of the answers and that the ear is still the tool of choice. I can always hear differences that I can't measure but it doesn't make them any less important. It just means that we need to figure out how to measure what we hear. No speaker is even close to sounding "real" so personal opinion is always a major consideration.

I don't know who Timbers is but I agree that listening to speakers is mandatory before you make the final judgement; I use measurements for shortlisting (and I've gotten reasonably good at correlating the measurements with my listening impressions).
 
You have the recording of a live event or a studio album produced in the mixing console. This is the only truth available. Now you wish to reproduce that music so you need a system that can extract as much information, amplify it and transduce it as accurately as possible. This is called high fidelity reproduction.

I listen mainly to classical music which is generally well recorded. The more accurate the system, the more realistic it'll sound to me.
I started out with 12" Wharfedales, then 15" Tannoys. I used to play (I use the term loosely) my bass guitar through them. Ever since I have been trying to get back there, mainly with 10" drivers. IB, transmission line, 'barics, but nothing works like big drivers. But I'm not allowed. :(
 
It's curious how you seem to view the file as the reality, but the original sound as not.

You must understand that studio music is created in the mixing console, this is your original sound.
Even acoustic sounds like vocals or a guitar are almost always processed.
They're often close-mic'ed in mono and then the ambiance is added through panning and reverb.

With classical music there was a real musical event but the chances of someone having been present are slim.
All you get is the recording.

I attended this same repertoire the week this concerto was recorded, but it doesn't even sound like what I was used to listening in that room because the engineers used multi- spot-mic'ing which creates a perspective that's totally different from that of the audience.
The video was made the day I attended the concert:

 
I started out with 12" Wharfedales, then 15" Tannoys. I used to play (I use the term loosely) my bass guitar through them. Ever since I have been trying to get back there, mainly with 10" drivers. IB, transmission line, 'barics, but nothing works like big drivers. But I'm not allowed. :(

I had a pair of Consonance Opera Barque 12"s then a pair of Spendor SP9/1s.
I can feel your pain.
 
The software does it for you. Pretty idiotic isn't it.:rolleyes:
Did you miss the part where I said that "Listening to accuracy is more tricky but there are problems that one can identify through listening assessment"





Which measurements are you talking about and what do you mean by "measure very similarly"?
There's a bucketful of measurements that you can perform to a speaker and I've never seen a pair that "measure very similarly" in all parameters.
Besides, there are aspects of the topology and construction that need to be taken into account; even looking at a speaker will provide important information.



I don't know who Timbers is but I agree that listening to speakers is mandatory before you make the final judgement; I use measurements for shortlisting (and I've gotten reasonably good at correlating the measurements with my listening impressions).

Good, so you concede without a reference you are buggered.

It'd be great for you to substantiate your list of measurements that you use to assess quality (without listening) as by all accounts you've pretty much found the holy grail, especially when you factor in appearance too....
 
Good, so you concede without a reference you are buggered.

It'd be great for you to substantiate your list of measurements that you use to assess quality (without listening) as by all accounts you've pretty much found the holy grail, especially when you factor in appearance too....

Ha, ha, cheeky. But it's not appearance, it's visual inspection.
 
I had a pair of Consonance Opera Barque 12"s then a pair of Spendor SP9/1s.
I can feel your pain.
Damn, I've been wanting to hear the Consonance 12" or even better the 15". I have the Consonance Orfeo CDP, and I've had pre and power amps by them. I just like the way they are made.
39319592914_540491e4f1_z.jpg
 
Damn, I've been wanting to hear the Consonance 12" or even better the 15". I have the Consonance Orfeo CDP, and I've had pre and power amps by them. I just like the way they are made.

Don't feel bad, they're just good looking rubbish. :D
Tried to improve their performance but it was getting expensive...
Still have a pic to remember:

4467500214_f1b4057b1d_o.jpg
 
It doesn't matter it's still a list of parameters as set against a reference-or references, if you didn't have an idea of the original you wouldn't know if the shade of blue, the hue/cast intensity were accurate.

You lost me there.
What are you referring to?
 
How do you know it's accurate if you don't know what you are comparing it to? Idiotic notion...
I agree but perhaps I would call "accuracy" and "high fidelity" etc. notions with no commonly accepted single definition. They are imprecise and people all have different ideas and preferences. After all that's why forums such as this flourish with different views.

I suspect most people who take audio reproduction seriously participate on the fundamental basis of "because it pleases me." I certainly do.

For me, I doubt that it's possible to say why something is pleasing. It just is or it isn't. However, over the years I have sought to work out what it is about music, equipment etc. that I like. In amongst the cacophony of marketing material that is meant to persuade me. I have some ideas and they apply to me and others will have their own views.

WRT equipment, to add to the range of views I see "accuracy" and similar concepts in terms of "not doing anything that detracts from enjoying the music". I have some ideas about the technical limitations of equipment that I dislike although there are some things I dislike that I can't explain in technical terms. Top of my list of effects that detract from musical enjoyment are boomy imprecise bass reproduction and (I think because it's difficult to really verify) non-linear distortion levels (loudspeakers) that cause me to be uncomfortable setting volume levels such that I can experience the dynamic range I know is there in real classical misic.
 
Tuga, we were talking at crossed purposes I was still referring to the file whereas you were referring to the appearance/build of a speaker so I amended my response. Quite what justifies the childish irony GIF post is beyond me, is that you sitting infront of those Consonance speakers?:)
 
I agree but perhaps I would call "accuracy" and "high fidelity" etc. notions with no commonly accepted single definition. They are imprecise and people all have different ideas and preferences. After all that's why forums such as this flourish with different views.

I suspect most people who take audio reproduction seriously participate on the fundamental basis of "because it pleases me." I certainly do.

For me, I doubt that it's possible to say why something is pleasing. It just is or it isn't. However, over the years I have sought to work out what it is about music, equipment etc. that I like. In amongst the cacophony of marketing material that is meant to persuade me. I have some ideas and they apply to me and others will have their own views.

WRT equipment, to add to the range of views I see "accuracy" and similar concepts in terms of "not doing anything that detracts from enjoying the music". I have some ideas about the technical limitations of equipment that I dislike although there are some things I dislike that I can't explain in technical terms. Top of my list of effects that detract from musical enjoyment are boomy imprecise bass reproduction and (I think because it's difficult to really verify) non-linear distortion levels (loudspeakers) that cause me to be uncomfortable setting volume levels such that I can experience the dynamic range I know is there in real classical misic.

That's a real world user perspective John, hard to argue with it, the trouble is some wade in throwing absolutes about when clearly the subject is riddled with compromises, caveats, qualification and subjective opinion.
 
Don't feel bad, they're just good looking rubbish. :D
Tried to improve their performance but it was getting expensive...
Still have a pic to remember:

4467500214_f1b4057b1d_o.jpg

Tuga, can you give some details of your paint scheme. I'm quite liking that terracotta style background. Must have been hell to get to the cds with that set-up, mind.
 
Tuga, can you give some details of your paint scheme. I'm quite liking that terracotta style background. Must have been hell to get to the cds with that set-up, mind.

He, he, this was my old home, and I only kept genres that I didn't listen often in those IKEA supports.
The lounge was painted over a decade ago and I can't remember the NCS code... Perhaps something similar to this?

https://www.olympic.com/paint-colors/rum-raisin-ol6446
 
Good paint job :) We tried terracotta in the dining room. Tried to give it “clouded” finish. Made a complete bollox of it, and over painted with white emulsion :(.

OTOH, all our systems (bar one) are active. I just like what they do. But the house does resemble a hifi dealers :D
 


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