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Who's Heard the Dutch & Dutch Speakers

Discussion in 'audio' started by zekezebra, Nov 27, 2018.

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  1. Purité Audio

    Purité Audio Trade: Purite Audio

    The new ‘24’ firmware version allows you to store three previous sets of EQ settings, I believe all new speakers come with this version and older models will in time update to it.
    Also there is the prospect of uploading REW filters directly to the 8Cs!
  2. yuckyamson

    yuckyamson pfm Member

    Interestingly I'm quite inclined to believe those who say that although the measure nearly perfect, that the bottom end doesn't have the weight or displacement of something containing a bigger driver and or cabinet volume (not as a general rule but in some specific cases).

    Interesting to note two things :

    Recently John Darko interviewed the owner of hedd audio formerly of Adam audio. He said that to this day he doesn't understand why something can measure the same and yet not deliver the same real dynamics he hears and ultimately builds.

    Second was an interview with vivids Simon Dickie. He was talking about designing a particular model and said that when he initially built the prototype he had whatever x, y drivers and parameters, and they measured as expected but didnt do it for him. He then oversized the driver and "over shoved" it, and got that smile back on his face.

    The measurements are great tools to aid the ears. Not vice versa.
    brumjam and camverton like this.
  3. Purité Audio

    Purité Audio Trade: Purite Audio

    Lawrence Dickie of Vivid formerly KEF and B&W, I have Klaus’ Hedd ‘Towers Main here they certainly are dynamic with 16x8” bass drivers.
    In my room I had to reduce the output of the bass divers, otherwise the bass becomes disproportionate to the rest of the FR.
    Remember it is cone area which produces the sound pressure, it doesn’t matter if you have one large cone or multiple smaller drivers.
    Klaus states that the 16 drivers of the Towers are equivalent to more than 2x 18” drivers.
  4. JohnPM

    JohnPM Member

    They make fun desktop speakers :)

    Knipester, irons1965, brumjam and 3 others like this.
  5. yuckyamson

    yuckyamson pfm Member

    Right. So the 2x8" bass drivers of the d&d with the.... What? Guessing approx 25 litre cab can only do so much, and although overcoming the physics with eq and dsp does a lot, there's still room for people to feel as though they don't have the bass weight of something bigger.

    Glad we agree, Keith.
  6. Joe P

    Joe P certified Buffologist / mod

    Vince Clortho , keymaster of Gozer , I have Tannoy GRFs in my “room” and they are large.

    Many shubs and "zuuls" were roasted in the depths of the slor that day I can tell you.

    yuckyamson likes this.
  7. TheDecameron

    TheDecameron Unicorns fart glitter.

    I like the look of those so much, I want to get my hands on them. I mean I’m confessing to Deadly Sins 1,3 and 6 right here. Do you tend to leave windows open when you go out?
  8. Strictly Stereo

    Strictly Stereo Trade: Strictly Stereo

    Obviously, no amount of DSP will overcome the laws of physics, but the 8c uses long throw bass drivers and these are normally coupled to the front wall in a manner which exploits boundary reinforcement. They do have the bass weight to rival considerably larger conventional speakers, albeit not the very largest speakers. Where they do rival the largest speakers is in their dispersion characteristics, which are similar to a speaker with an extremely large front baffle.
    AndyU likes this.
  9. yuckyamson

    yuckyamson pfm Member

    Boss, I 100% understand your analysis and it makes sense. To give a greater understanding of my position, it was I who initially thought that the stereophile caveat of "restricted lf" was odd. What I was commenting on now and later here was the note from people who have experience with the 8cs and the kiis and feel that although they do dig into the nether regions, they do so with a spade rather than with a caterpillar-digger. Which I believe.

    I totally am confident theyd have more than enough bass in a small to medium sized room for me for the rest of my life, but it was more Keith's doubling down on his insistence and 'admit nothing' strategy that prompted me to comment again.

    Your comment here is completely understandable.
    Andrew C! likes this.
  10. S-Man

    S-Man Kinkless Tetrode Admirer

    Bass weight?
    Bass overhang?

    IMO Kii3 with BXT can do bass weight without bass overhang. I haven't heard enough of the double Dutchs to say if they can, but I suspect they can.
  11. yuckyamson

    yuckyamson pfm Member

    Dude the bxt changes the conversation.
  12. jamjar784

    jamjar784 Heavy Up

    Was it a Mordaunt Short Performance 6 demo versus live saxophone?
  13. poco a poco

    poco a poco I'm Jim

    B & W used to do it at the Heathrow HiFi shows around the late 1970's early 80's with a clarinetist whose name I can no longer remember. The musician would stand between the speakers and they would fade the speakers out and he would take over and then they would do the reverse. I don't think it was all that convincing to me, but seemed to go down well. I think that was mainly due to an Ivor Tiefenbrun sales pitch before the demo started telling you what you were or were not going to hear.
    firedog likes this.
  14. S-Man

    S-Man Kinkless Tetrode Admirer

    Yes old chap.
    However many people think overhang in the bass is bass weight. 90% of the systems at Munich suffered from bass overhang and since so many did, one can only assume that this is what the punters want.
    Andrew C! likes this.
  15. camverton

    camverton pfm Member

    It could have been B&W about 1974 perhaps. The one I was at I remember as being convincing, it may have been the DM70 with the electrostatic panel on top of the bass unit. That I remember as being a very impressive speaker at the time, and the continental version rather good looking. Alas I didn't have anywhere near enough money for that, but did buy a pair of the cheapest model in their range which I was happy enough with for a long time, until that is I bought a secondhand pair of Quad 57s. They spoiled me for every box speaker since!

    The thing is, it isn't just about how a speaker measures in isolation but how the room/speaker package works and I am coming to the conclusion that if the room is removed too much from the equation the result is a reduction in realism for genres where that is relevant. People clearly hear things differently and rely on different cues in the reproduced sound to make the recording convincing.
    Fretbuzz likes this.
  16. Fretbuzz

    Fretbuzz pfm Member

    I've played solo acoustic stuff on the system that could easily convince most, with eyes closed, there's a performer is in the room. But hear an actual acoustic guitar in there and feel its breath - so different.

    Similarly get a few playing on small guitar amps (including bass) in the same room and there's an immediate, tangible energy I've never heard from any system. I've sat and listened to this as I would the hifi. Sound-staging, imaging, thoughts of measurements etc, go out the window but it matters not because it's real and you're immersed in it. Totally different experience. Produced vs. reproduced music.

    It all heightens the fact that hifi is all an illusion. Just aim for one that makes you happy/satisfied, or indeed as above, convinced.
    camverton likes this.
  17. poco a poco

    poco a poco I'm Jim

    I also rather liked the DM70's although I think it was the first version of the 801's I heard in this demonstration? I couldn't afford either of those, but I did buy a pair of B & W DM2A's transmission line speakers, that seem to have garnered quite a following again lately. I really wanted a pair of IMF Reference MKIV's, but couldn't afford them either. The DM2A's never really did it for me, not that well built under the covers and uncontrolled murky bass, but that is possibly because the Yamaha CR1000 receiver I was using, although excellent with most loudspeakers, couldn't drive their difficult load. The Active Meridian M1's were a game changer for me when I heard them.

    The trouble with ELS57's although wonderful in many respects are not dynamic enough and have insufficient volume for me as a single pair and a stacked pair is too big for any room I have had. I don't know if you ever heard it but the Mark Levinson HQD speaker system, that used stacked Quads, in a large room was a real mind blower (at that point in time), but not a real world product for most of us mortals. :(;)
    camverton likes this.
  18. camverton

    camverton pfm Member

    Absolutely. I think it isn't so much a question of finding a system that sounds and measures like the real thing, that road so often leads to disappointment, but finding a system that fools us into thinking we are hearing the real thing. At least that's what works for me!
  19. camverton

    camverton pfm Member

    I do agree about the 57's, astonishing as they were and in some ways the 63's sounded a bit of a disappointment by comparison. The latest '05 and '12 series do seem to give the magic of the 57's with a a decent amount of scale and dynamics. Probably not enough for all genres and tastes although Dave Brubeck's drummer at the Carnegie Hall was pretty visceral here the other night! Frightened the living daylights out of my cat - I have the claw scars to prove it!
  20. Purité Audio

    Purité Audio Trade: Purite Audio

    Stacked with two subs and broadband absorption behind was the best iteration I have heard.
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