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Who's Heard the Dutch & Dutch Speakers

Discussion in 'audio' started by zekezebra, Nov 27, 2018.

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    YNWOAN 100% Analogue

    With a similar level of respect, such comments are a bit rich (but funny) coming from you Keith; definitely a case of pot meets kettle!
  2. Purité Audio

    Purité Audio Trade: Purite Audio

  3. camverton

    camverton pfm Member

    Wow, Andy. Sounds like a rich concert going life you have; yep, share your thoughts on Dave Holland but in my case going from his recordings.

    Whilst I do like my measurements, for my use only :), when it comes to learning about equipment the experience of regular concert goers is very interesting and probably tells me more about whether I would like a particular speaker. The thing is I love music and tolerate hifi. The more the hifi evokes the sensations of music the better but, alas, some equipment makes classical music sound like hifi although that may be just the ticket for other genres and tastes. There is no right and wrong way of doing it as long the end result sounds great to the individual listener.
  4. camverton

    camverton pfm Member

    I still have a pair of Meridian dsp5500 speakers; excellent speakers in their way with a great sense of “scale”, although Meridian’s 7200s were to my ears far superior and might come closer to MBLs and Quads.

    Great to hear you are happy with your speakers and nice to hear about Keith’s exemplary off forum behaviour; balance is everything! I found him charming on the phone but the stick he gets on forums is entirely of his own making and possibly choosing.
  5. poco a poco

    poco a poco I'm Jim

    So is your inverse implication of this that we 'who are enamoured' with the 8c's are really the ones who don't know what 'real music' sounds like?

    I can assure you I been attending live concerts for approximately the last 60 years. Jazz and Classical including Opera, not much, 'hardly any 'rock music' these days though. I think I have a pretty good take on what are the important aspects of live music I like to hear reproduced well and also on how far from the whole real music experience HiFi still is. Last Saturday I was at a Big Band Jazz concert in aid of the National Jazz Archive in a fairly small Methodist Church Hall (200 people sell out).18 musicians! Pretty much all acoustic (rare these days with Jazz), with the exception of an electric upright bass and a mike for the singer. I was 6 rows from the front where the peak volume (I recon in excess of 120db at times. I wish I had taken a sound level meter), dynamics and bass from the one drummer's kick drum and the band as whole was astonishing and yet the detail and delicacy of some of the playing was still very apparent.

    No HiFi still gets anywhere near this experience yet, and I probably wouldn't really want it in my listening room, but I applauded the attempts by those who are using advances in relatively new technology and engineering expertise to try to advance the listening experience. In the meantime we each configure our music reproduction systems to give us, from our own experience of live music, the aspects of 'recorded' music (something a bit different) that hopefully emotionally move us as much as a good live concert. We are all different. My friend with Audio Note and WH 300B valves could hear and appreciate things from the D&D 8c's that he had not heard before, but said he would not want to live with them. Is he wrong and am I right, of course not. He goes to live concerts and knows what live music sounds like, but when he listens to reproduced recorded music his priorities are obviously different to mine.

    I really find the implication that those of us who have appreciated what the 8c's and Kii3's can do are not conversant with the sound of live music a bit of an insult.
    Emlin, Dozey and SteveH like this.
  6. firedog

    firedog pfm Member

    Agree. No system I've ever heard sounds just like the real thing live. Not even close. Even for one instrument or a duet. Anyone who says their system does is either ignorant or full of it. Or can't hear well.

    Some systems come closer to that ideal than others. But since no system is perfect, we all have different ideas of what a system should sound like. That's why some think speakers like the D&D come closer than others, and others don't agree.
  7. Purité Audio

    Purité Audio Trade: Purite Audio

    Live Sound and reproduced sound are different entities, all a Hi-Fi can do is accurately reproduce the file, cd,record.
    Julf likes this.
  8. mattgbell

    mattgbell Help the elderly and unwell!

    But there are loads of recordings that give a lifelike impression of live music -- for instance classical recordings. (I can give you examples, if you're interested.) So why shouldn't we use our experience of live (classical) music as a benchmark?
    tuga, John Phillips and camverton like this.
  9. Joe P

    Joe P certified Buffologist / mod


    I agree. Of course you can use live orchestral and chamber music as a benchmark. I’m sure the engineers who record music do.

    Recordings fail to meet that standard perfectly, as do systems, but if that’s not the goal then what is?

  10. camverton

    camverton pfm Member

    I can’t remember which manufacturer it was, but years ago there was someone at shows who played a live instrument which faded into the hifi system. It was very convincing so perhaps we were ignorant, full of it or couldn’t hear very well!

    The ideal of hifi is to create a realistic illusion of the original; it doesn’t have to sound exactly the same as the original but if you are listening to, say, a good recording of a Bach cello suite, close your eyes and think a cellist is playing in front of you it is job done. I suspect that different people will require different types of equipment to trigger that illusion; it depends what we as individuals are sensitive to. I think I am sensitive to the illusion of a performer in a realistic space and the detail of, perhaps, a bow on a string, others may find different factors create a convincing illusion.

    I feel a bit sorry for those who can’t understand, and have never experienced it. Keep listening and trying things, ignore limiting dogma such as “all a Hi-Fi can do is accurately reproduce the file, cd,record”, and you too can enjoy a convincing illusion of the real thing, although I must admit it gets tricky with a 100 piece orchestra but very doable for classical chamber music. To suggest that those who have systems that manage it are full of it, ignorant, or can’t hear very well is ignorance in itself!
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2019
    AndyU and Fretbuzz like this.
  11. oldius

    oldius Can pleasure be measured?

    I heard them at the Cranage show and they didn't appeal to my ears, in that setting. If I were in this elevated market now, I would want to hear this type of speaker to see if I preferred them to my more traditional preferences of large drivers in generally sealed boxes. I would be surprised if what I heard at Cranage was what the speaker is capable of. My two favourite designs at Cranage were the big ATC designs. I did also enjoy some smaller speakers, much smaller, so it was not just a matter of scale.
  12. TheDecameron

    TheDecameron Unicorns fart glitter.

    The 5500s were the last Meridian speakers I owned following years with the 5000s. Impressive scale and better resolution / separation than the 5000s. Great on orchestral music- taking a much better stab at orchestral scale and dynamics than the majority of sanely priced systems. I couldn’t get satisfactory control of the bass though, even in a big room they boomed. When you see the meagre prices they go for on the s/h market these days, they represent an amazing bargain. (No connection with seller).

    If I was starting out again, on a tight budget, Id buy them, apply bass cut and stuff the ports to squeeze them into a smaller room. Not heard the 7200s but you’ve got me interested! Meridian were really ahead of the game- who else was making active digital speakers for the domestic market more than 30 years ago?
    camverton likes this.
  13. John Phillips

    John Phillips pfm Member

    I think this line of argument fails because there seems to me to be no one essential standard for live music. Concert halls differ a lot in how they present the same instruments and music. But I enjoy the result nevertheless. And even though I have, at times, listened to how a concert hall presents a performance, this has always been transitory. Listening to the music always takes over.

    So the goal (for me) has to be formulated not in achieving perfect reproduction to some standard but in having a system that does not do anything that detracts from a range of believable illusions according with my experience of live music.

    I also listen to and enjoy music that may never have had any real life existence. I don't have a view on any standard for that which is relevant to me. However I find kit that achieves my live music goal works for me there. I'm not asserting at all that other ways of enjoying the hobby are inferior. YMMV and I don't want to seem like the apocryphal salesman with a hammer who treats everyone like a nail.

    Oh, and I have heard the D&D 8c. On a short demo they didn't take any wrong steps according to my tastes, so I suspect they would meet my goal. But I am still happy with what I have.
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2019
  14. Purité Audio

    Purité Audio Trade: Purite Audio

    Even better record someone playing an instrument in your room and replay it in your room, recording a single instrument is your best chance of approximating a ‘live’ sound.
  15. Purité Audio

    Purité Audio Trade: Purite Audio

    The 8Cs are sealed , the Yams have a 12” driver?, the 8Cs two 8” high excursion bass drivers on the rear.
  16. camverton

    camverton pfm Member

    You are right about the bass! Unrestricted they are a bit much but at least have enough output to control. I used to use a Meridian G68 with inbuilt room correction as a pre. That Bob Stuart knew a thing or two about the subject! On orchestral music, as you say, they have the sort of scale that modern, precise speakers can only dream about.
  17. Julf

    Julf Facts are our friends

    I think we have to understand the two separate main parts of recording and reproducing music. The first part is recording - capturing the sound, and then processing and mixing it. The result is a recording. It might or might not sound like "the original" (whatever that is - think of most modern recordings) depending on the skill and intent of the recording technicians and producers. A domestic hifi system strives to reproduce that result - the recording. Not try to second-guess or recreate whatever we believe the "original sound" was.
    Purité Audio likes this.
  18. camverton

    camverton pfm Member

    Yes, there are parts of a chain going from the original performance via recording, processing etc, replay equipment to the listeners perception.

    Missing out the first and last pieces of the chain is very limiting but if that is what floats your boat than that is fine and relatively easy to do. If When listening to music in my home I get the same emotion that I would get from an original performance than job done. Why would any music lover strive for less? When I listened to the Danel Quartet playing Shostakovich’s 7th the other day it was as much as I could do not to jump up, roar approval and rush over and shake them by the hand, such was the illusion of a real event.
  19. TheDecameron

    TheDecameron Unicorns fart glitter.

    I remember thinking if the 5500 had been an infinite baffle, it could have been very impressive though I imagine that would have jumped the amplification costs up to deliver comparable wallop. I wonder if they’ve moved to class D for the speaker modules?
  20. camverton

    camverton pfm Member

    I’m not sure. I listened to the 7200s at the time when I had the dsp5500s in use. The 7200s had both scale, detail but also delicacy when required. Terrific speakers with some of the visceral qualities of an electrostatic. They were a good balance between the small 5200s which I suppose are comparable to the current faves in terms of limited sense of scale, but not as overblown as their bigger models, which admittedly would sound great in a very large room.
    TheDecameron likes this.
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