Who's Heard the Dutch & Dutch Speakers

[AndyU]

It’s possible, we didn’t get into measurements on the day and like I said, neither setup had been measured. We did clear out all PEQs in the 8c but it made little difference.

I’d heard the 8c described as ‘narcotic bass’ and a bass ‘you can really feel / shake the house’. On the day it did neither even at SPL much higher than I listen to. I’m not sure if the wall behind them was partition or not and because I never saw any measurements it’s hard to judge. All I can really do is compare what I heard them both do in the same room on that day.

I wish I’d had longer and could get into more technical stuff but it achieved the first stage of the process! I know which I’m more inclined to try at home initially and as I’ve said a few times, it’s not just SQ considerations. I’ll think very hard about it before moving ahead.

Just to also be clear, one of the key things I’m hoping to achieve in my difficult space (Edwardian house, suspended exposed wooden floor, fireplaces, semi-open plan, little furniture) is get a better bass ‘impact’ without the hassle of adding a sub or any room treatments. I’ve tried a few bits of kit and all have the same issue. Improvements came from DSP and convolution but it’s never got where I want. I was hoping these ‘next gen’ actives would help but until I try at home it’s hard to say. I’m also just not sure I want such a complicated expensive box from relatively new companies and restrictive warranties are one extra con for me personally.

Don’t worry Hifi_swlon, soon Keith will be along to tell you that the Kiis are perfect and you don’t know what real bass is.

(But maybe as far as the 8cs are concerned you might want to hold off on a dem; according to the Gearslutz thread the latest software update has resulted in some serious issues with no bass in the “free space” setting.)

 

[Knipester]

@Hifi_swlon I’d urge you to not discount the 8c’s based on what you’ve heard. Their bass delivery is certainly different to what is often achieved with passive speakers because it’s controlled and never overblown. this can initially seem light but you quickly realise it’s how it should be. Having played James Blake loud I can assure you their bass is far from light and your hairs on the back of your neck would confirm that.

I think your experience isn’t the service that will ultimately help you decide if they are for you as I had the 8c’s on home demo from lee @ strictly stereo over a 2 week period and he kindly kept sending me several tweaked filter sets until I found a sound I loved. This part of the process is very important and needs to be done to determine if they are for you. I had a couple of filter sets that if that’s all I’d heard I wouldn’t have bought a pair.

Can’t recommend Lee enough

 

[Strictly Stereo]

...according to the Gearslutz thread the latest software update has resulted in some serious issues with no bass in the “free space” setting.)

That was fixed months ago...

Who's Heard the Dutch & Dutch Speakers

 

[Hifi_swlon]

Where was the demo Hifi_swlon? I'd like to hear the 8Cs, but don't know the 2 nearest dealers, Igloo or Ultimate Stream.

I’ll PM you. Not that it’s a secret - it was a very enjoyable demo in a nice space - but I never said I’d post my findings here and just incase I put my foot in it or say anything controversial.....

 

[Hifi_swlon]

@Hifi_swlon I’d urge you to not discount the 8c’s based on what you’ve heard. Their bass delivery is certainly different to what is often achieved with passive speakers because it’s controlled and never overblown. this can initially seem light but you quickly realise it’s how it should be. Having played James Blake loud I can assure you their bass is far from light and your hairs on the back of your neck would confirm that.

I’m pretty savvy on sound stuff these days - I’m very technical in general but in sound I was a novice and it’s been a long road from box swapping to here and I’ve learnt a lot.

So I know a home dem is the only real test (I can easily measure and set filters and evaluate) but I have to trust they were set up at least somewhat optimally for the demo.

As much as I thought I would before I set out, in all likelihood I won’t try them at home for various reasons beyond SQ.

 

[AndyU]

That was fixed months ago...

Who's Heard the Dutch & Dutch Speakers

Maybe but people seem to still be suffering from it a week ago .,

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showpost.php?p=13876277&postcount=1149

and there are others, so something seems not right to me, either with the updates or the support. Certainly I would be more than a little bit annoyed if I got an automatic update that messed up my speakers and I couldn’t immediately revert to an earlier version, which is what seems to have happened to some of the gearslutz guys.

 

[Andrew C!]

Interesting that thread talks about ‘free space’ setting...

 

[Strictly Stereo]

Maybe but people seem to still be suffering from it a week ago .,

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showpost.php?p=13876277&postcount=1149

and there are others, so something seems not right to me, either with the updates or the support. Certainly I would be more than a little bit annoyed if I got an automatic update that messed up my speakers and I couldn’t immediately revert to an earlier version, which is what seems to have happened to some of the gearslutz guys.

Updates are only downloaded when the speakers are connected to the Internet. Some of the guys on Gearslutz are still running the old firmware. Newer firmware updates include an option to turn off automatic updates.

D&D can roll back updates in response to raising a support ticket. Alternatively, you can upgrade to the newer firmware and repeat the setup process.

 

[Strictly Stereo]

Interesting that thread talks about ‘free space’ setting...

In terms of the 8c’s settings, this is anything over 1.5m from the front wall or over 1m from the nearest side wall.

 

[AndyU]

Updates are only downloaded when the speakers are connected to the Internet. Some of the guys on Gearslutz are still running the old firmware. Newer firmware updates include an option to turn off automatic updates.

D&D can roll back updates in response to raising a support ticket. Alternatively, you can upgrade to the newer firmware and repeat the setup process.

You mean they don’t remember the setup settings across an update, and you have to repeat the set up process every update. ? Why can’t you roll back an update yourself? And if D&D do the roll back, do you have to repeat the set up again?

 

[Strictly Stereo]

You mean they don’t remember the setup settings across an update?

No, I don't mean that at all. I mean that in an older firmware version, some of the settings you selected in the web app were not correctly applied to the speakers. Consequently, when setting them up, you would adjust the settings and get the desired output. Without the bug, the same settings would be correctly applied and would then give the wrong results.

The solution is to stick with or roll back to the old firmware, or repeat the setup process after updating the firmware. None of this would affect a new pair or an older pair that was updated before being set up.

Why can’t you roll back an update yourself? And if D&D do the roll back, do you have to repeat the set up again?

That would be a bit more convenient than calling D&D, but this is an exceptional situation which they did not anticipate. In this case, rolling back the firmware would resolve the problem without requiring owners to repeat the setup process.

 

[Andrew C!]

In terms of the 8c’s settings, this is anything over 1.5m from the front wall or over 1m from the nearest side wall.

Agreed. I was drawing attn to this bit. It won't affect me, obviously...

 

[Strictly Stereo]

...It won't affect me, obviously...

Definitely not.

 

[SteveH]

Where was the demo Hifi_swlon? I'd like to hear the 8Cs, but don't know the 2 nearest dealers, Igloo or Ultimate Stream.

Steve Helliker @ Ultimate Stream will let you hear both, provides fabulous service, and he's not all over this place like a rash.

 

[Strictly Stereo]

Where was the demo Hifi_swlon? I'd like to hear the 8Cs, but don't know the 2 nearest dealers, Igloo or Ultimate Stream.

I'm currently planning a trip to Eastbourne. I could bring a pair down to you, if you like.

 

[Strictly Stereo]

Some before and after in-room measurements from an install yesterday. The "before" measurements include any required adjustments to the boundary settings. The "after" measurements include 4/5 PEQ filters applied between 20Hz and 200Hz.

Left and right speakers before correction

Left and right speakers with correction

Left speaker before and after correction

Right speaker before and after correction

 

[Sloop John B]

Some before and after in-room measurements from an install yesterday. The "before" measurements include any required adjustments to the boundary settings. The "after" measurements include 4/5 PEQ filters applied between 20Hz and 200Hz.

Left and right speakers before correction

Left and right speakers with correction

Left speaker before and after correction

Right speaker before and after correction

I’m afraid some of wil need commentary in order to understand these graphs?

.sjb

 

[firedog]

Some before and after in-room measurements from an install yesterday. The "before" measurements include any required adjustments to the boundary settings. The "after" measurements include 4/5 PEQ filters applied between 20Hz and 200Hz.

Very impressive. How did you get that approximately -10db slope across the audible spectrum?

 

[Strictly Stereo]

Very impressive. How did you get that approximately -10db slope across the audible spectrum?

That is just what they do "in room" using this measurement technique (multiple spatially averaged measurements).

 

[Strictly Stereo]

I’m afraid some of wil need commentary in order to understand these graphs?

.sjb

Using this (flat) speaker and measurement technique, a theoretically perfect (according to Toole) in-room response would show a smooth 1dB/octave (10dB) fall off between 20Hz and 20kHz. The modal resonances in this untreated room create some large deviations from this ideal at the bottom end, most notably the really big peak at 36Hz. By applying some filters in the 20Hz to 200Hz region, you can compensate for these modal peaks to get a pretty close to perfect in-room response.

This chart shows the measured (uncorrected) response for one speaker, the 1dB/octave target, the filters required to map the measured response to the target and the predicted response with the filters applied. The "after" measurements confirm that the measured response with the filters in place is pretty close to the predicted response (and the target).