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What's the truth about the LP12?

Jek,

the problem with your maths has been that you constantly overstated the costs associated with the Linn yet understated anything to do with the Brinkmann collection.

I'm sure you aren't suggesting other forumites are so stupid as to imagine that was purely accidental?

At least the two companies concerned share their ethos of taking an old design and developing it to a logical conclusion as and when technology allows. Both seem to charge a premium for this work as befits low volume production in the 21st Century.

With regards to superiority, let's be honest and say that any judgement here is subjective. One thing I have learned is that people can and do listen for very different qualities.
 
I bought the mana support for use with my prior high end PT set-up. Before that it was on a target table. It worked very well.

I then later bought the BLG and a TSSS to go with it.

What I don't believe is that building a huge Mana Tower of Babel has any positive effect, in fact I believe doing so should be deleterious given the precarious height and numerous connection interfaces.
 
No I stated the cost of my own BLG set-up after you let the cat out of the bag Merle for your own nefarious reasons. I believe my representation of that cost to be accurate. It was your wish to bring that into the discussion. Otherwise I would not have mentioned it as it is not relevant to the discussion at hand and just leads to shit slinging.

I ridiculed the lp12 limited edition cost of course but I wasn't too far off the correct cost for the top specification Linn, excepting a small error in not removing the lingo which did not materially affect my arguments. This was all taken from a dealer website. I posted my own breakdown of the cost exactly to make sure that I was giving a fair representation.

Your interpretation seems a little uncharitable in that light.
 
The truth IMO is that the LP12 remains a competitive turntable sound quality wise. I owned one for many years and it brought me many hours of listening pleasure. The argument against an LP12 for me is that the likes of top decks from Well Tempered offer sound quality that is comparable with the full monty Sondek at a much lower price. The Radical and Keel mods are excellent and have eliminated many of the old LP12 weaknesses but cost silly money. Why the LP12 stirs such polarised views here in the UK is somewhat perplexing though. Surely it's performance is neither way clear of anything else or rubbish. If I had to give up my WT Versalex I'd consider going back to a Linn.
 
OK. No well set up LP12 requires constant fettling nurturing, tweaking and/or upgrading. This is a myth, possibly exacerbated by the sheer quantity of 30/40 year old poorly maintained decks available on eBay.

How do you quantify "better sound quality"? How can you talk about "better build quality" if you don't know what the current specifications (i.e. those in the last 3-5 years) are on an LP12.

Beltingly funny stuff this...........

Linn is nowhere near the same ball park as SME / Brinkmann for build quality. If you believe otherwise I will be interested to hear your case.

So why do people keep tweaking and upgrading LP12 decks? I think it is because of a profound dissatisfaction with the fundamental flaws of the deck. Same as cable fiends. Why is there a perception that somehow setting the lp12 is a mystic art?

Better sound quality. Some changes are incremental. Some changes are a quantum leap. The gap between the LP12 and the best decks now fits firmly into that second category. Its a complete transformation that leaves the listener in no doubt that the improvement is vast. Unlike say swapping cables in and out and imagining you hear a difference.

The LP12 is still competitive but at around 2k for a complete set-up not 16k ie if the top spec cost that it would be fair in my mind.
 
The truth IMO is that the LP12 remains a competitive turntable sound quality wise. I owned one for many years and it brought me many hours of listening pleasure. The argument against an LP12 for me is that the likes of top decks from Well Tempered offer sound quality that is comparable with the full monty Sondek at a much lower price. The Radical and Keel mods are excellent and have eliminated many of the old LP12 weaknesses but cost silly money. Why the LP12 stirs such polarised views here in the UK is somewhat perplexing though. Surely it's performance is neither way clear of anything else or rubbish. If I had to give up my WT Versalex I'd consider going back to a Linn.

I'd be a bit lost if I had to give up my WT. 25 years of an LP12 upgraded throughout but couldn't go back from the Amadeus GTA I moved to. I couldn't afford the likes of Brinkman so it would probably be a dear Rega. Once you have clocked that bass thing and confusion in complex bits the LP12 does you can't ignore it.
 
You've got to hand it to the dear old Linn, it could provoke an opinion out of a stone wall. I think it's perhaps the turntable equivalent of Mrs Thatcher..everyone has a strong view..
 
Owned an LP 12 for the best part of 12 years and consider myself a Linn enthusiast as have owned a few Linn systems over the years with the current system being Aktiv Akurate. The PL12 is a very good turntable , however I changed mine for a SME Model 10 with the SME V tone arm which I much prefer over the LP12. The SME has a wider sound stage so instruments are easily placed. The LP12 sound stage is not as wide as the SME but the PL12 is warmer sounding than the SME. The LP12 needs to be on a wall bracket if there is any sort of vibration on your floors it will cause the arm to bounce. The LP12 needs dealer attention over the years. Don’t regret getting the SME it’s sits with my hifi with no bouncing tone arm. Once set up it’s leave alone and play your records plus I love the way it sounds. There are lots of great turntables out there Michell Orb SE being another. All sound slightly different so it’s a case of go out and audition.
 
more like pointing out factual errors in posts by someone who clearly has an agenda to push. I'm wondering whether you've even heard one of the recent high spec Linn's you seem so keen to slag off given your self proclaimed ignorance of the latest LP12 upgrade.

I went into a very well regarded Linn dealer and asked to listen to their cheapest Linn LP12 as that was what I was genuinely interested in purchasing. I don't generally get accused of not making myself clear. When I arrived for the demo he had set up the most expensive all-Linn system they made at that time presumably so that I would remember that sound when he eventually got round to putting on what I had requested. I didn't buy either.
 
I'd be a bit lost if I had to give up my WT. 25 years of an LP12 upgraded throughout but couldn't go back from the Amadeus GTA I moved to. I couldn't afford the likes of Brinkman so it would probably be a dear Rega. Once you have clocked that bass thing and confusion in complex bits the LP12 does you can't ignore it.
I would also be lost without my WT but have you heard the Radical and Keel mods MVV? When I compared my LP12/ Lingo/ Ittock/ DV20xl to a Versalex last year the Linn sounded bloated and confused in comparison (take a breath Linness) I bought the WT and have never looked back. However I recently heard the full monty Sondek and I have to admit that it sounded excellent. Better than my WT sonically? No. But on a par with a different presentation and it looks great. That "on steroids" type sound is not my preferred choice but I can see why many would feel differently. The previous heard lumpy bass and confusion during complex passages are diminished with the "belts and braces" deck and with a complementary track it sounds thrilling. Only thing is the LP12 costs 5 x more than my deck. Simply not a viable option to all bar the devoted IMO. No one can deny it's incredible popularity here in the UK which I believe is fuelled by second hand numbers, an easy retro fit upgrade path and many of it's owners saturating the forums with elevated praise. The LP12 and Naim hallelujah brigade get completely carried away and persist in "shouting down" alternative equipment. There must be some interesting psychological explanation for this. Peter Swain (a clever man) and co must be laughing all the way to the bank.
 
I no longer have any skin in the game. My LP12 is languishing in the attic, all my LPs have been digitised to .flac & I am basically giving away my vinyl collection.

I used an LP12 as my primary source from 1979 to 1986 (the year I bought my first CDP). From 1976 to the present day, I have only bought 1 LP.

It was a damned good source for me until it was overtaken by a whole bunch of CDPs.

Chris
 


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