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What's Opposite to the Naim sound?

JohnW said:
I total agree with Arkless, for one thing there phase margins are right on the edge - driving real loads with even slightly capacitive cables going to make things a little "peaky" in the time domain.

The Naim designs with non symmetrical output stage (are they all non symmetrical?) is a sure recipe for higher order crossover distortion - this manifests itself as "hardness" and fatigue Brightness in the treble.

Phase Modulation around the zero crossing point is a awful - again due to change of forward gain of the non symmetrical output stage design as the signal transverse the crossover region - this PM negatively effects the sound stage.

I could go on - but I'd not consider the Naim amplifier topology "blameless"... but at the end of the day there are many happy Naim owners - and that's what matters.

Personally, I'm VERY sensitive to the apparent "peaky" treble of Naim systems I've heard at dealers and worst at show - its an aspect of sound quality I cannot live with but each to there own, and without sounding condescending everyone has there own criteria when it comes to enjoying Music.

Frequency response into perfect loads does not indicate time domain performance into real loads, so anyone claiming Naim amps. have a flat frequency response as a defence of there treble performance lacks the understanding of the importance of Phase margins and time domain performance when driving "complex" loads.

In answer to the original question, Tube amps, Sugden, Quad or Meridian solid state designs spring to mind.
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John W would you consider input sensitivity 1.9 volt is too high on the Rotel 1582 MK 2 200 wpc amplifier
 
Fin said:
Hi guys

In the past I've had Naim Nait xs integrated amp along with a Naim dac. To be honest, I really got to dislike the sound. It had too much treble, or maybe thinness, to describe it in the most communicable language I can think of.

Just wondering what amplifiers may offer a more lush warmer sound? My speakers are B&W CM9s.

Thanks
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Back to basics, but what is the 'Naim sound' ?
Reading Forums as diverse as a dedicated Naim Forum to a loudspeaker manufacturer's Forum, there appears to be quite a diversity of opinion. From 'only Naim amplifiers with Naim speakers' to 'Yes, the P3ESR will work perfectly well with the Naim Nait.'

Is it the old story of 'all amplifiers sound different' to 'any competent amplifier will work with most speakers' ?

In conclusion, it appears some will always recommend a Naim component for its particular sound.
 
Disbeliever said:
John W would you consider input sensitivity 1.9 volt is too high on the Rotel 1582 MK 2 200 wpc amplifier
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No not at all, far better then having a 100mV input sensitivity.

Why do you ask? are you having problems (sorry - off topic so maybe best via PM)?
 
positive_energy said:
SuperNait sounds pretty lush at my place.
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Good to see you posting again.

I think, though I'm often wrong, that the Super Nait is based on the more recent Naim amps, not the CB & Olive. I think it's the CB & Olive that have the 'Naim sound' that some people perceive as bright.
 
JohnW said:
No not at all, far better then having a 100mV input sensitivity.

Why do you ask? are you having problems (sorry - off topic so maybe best via PM)?
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!00mV type sensitivity could be a good thing in SS power amps.... It's tenuous but CM distortion is reduced and input stage distortion minimised.
 
JohnW said:
No not at all, far better then having a 100mV input sensitivity.

Why do you ask? are you having problems (sorry - off topic so maybe best via PM)?
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No problem, just that I have to advance the VC considerably more than when I use my previous 120 wpc stereo amp. I use the pre-out from my Sony DA5400ES receiver. to feed the Rotel amp. I note the lower power Rotel 125 watts has input sensitivity of I.5 volts. Does this automatically mean the more wpc the higher the input sensitivity. 100 mv input sensitivity seems far too low.
 
bob atherton said:
Good to see you posting again.

I think, though I'm often wrong, that the Super Nait is based on the more recent Naim amps, not the CB & Olive. I think it's the CB & Olive that have the 'Naim sound' that some people perceive as bright.
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The S'Nait is indeed based on the current Black or Classic range. This range is slightly richer in tone than the older stuff.

I regard the Naim Sound more to do with the CB/Olive ears, JCV's time and vision and the establishment of the cult. ;) :eek:

Neither are bright, thin or forward. They just rock!!!!

Good to see you back there also PE. :)
 
JohnW said:
The Naim designs with non symmetrical output stage (are they all non symmetrical?) is a sure recipe for higher order crossover distortion - this manifests itself as "hardness" and fatigue Brightness in the treble.
Click to expand...
NAIM have always run at a very low quiescent current, theoretically optimum but you had better get your thermal feed back correct and fast or the output stage is going to be starved of current sometimes under real dynamic conditions rather than steady state
 
Thanks guys, obviously quite an emotive topic! As a relative "audiophile" newcomer, I really did expect that shelling out thousands of pounds would buy me a system that couldn't be faulted, at least by 90% of people. Of course, after further research i've learned that nothing could be further from the truth. Now, for me at least, more cash does not mean better sound (for me). Yes, I love to hear all the details, to have the "as if the band were in the room" experience, but this need not be at the expense of enjoying the music. The "metallic" sounding Naim XS and DAC didn't suit me - note that I am not a Naim basher - I have a Unitiqute which I find is not as harsh, and in fairness to it, the functionality is excellent so I have this in a bedroom system.

So I seem to be getting close to narrowing down a shortlist for auditions (I am excluding valve amps) - Meridian, Sugden, Quad appear to be the names cropping up..
 
Just to add my opinion, I found leaving Naim and going to Roksan (Caspian) gave me the "rocking" I wanted, but without the treble highs that did my ears in! But was after much auditioning, as I was a Naim man for years!
 
JohnW said:
I total agree with Arkless, for one thing there phase margins are right on the edge - driving real loads with even slightly capacitive cables going to make things a little "peaky" in the time domain.

The Naim designs with non symmetrical output stage (are they all non symmetrical?) is a sure recipe for higher order crossover distortion - this manifests itself as "hardness" and fatigue Brightness in the treble.

Phase Modulation around the zero crossing point is a awful - again due to change of forward gain of the non symmetrical output stage design as the signal transverse the crossover region - this PM negatively effects the sound stage.

I could go on - but I'd not consider the Naim amplifier topology "blameless"... but at the end of the day there are many happy Naim owners - and that's what matters.

Personally, I'm VERY sensitive to the apparent "peaky" treble of Naim systems I've heard at dealers and worst at show - its an aspect of sound quality I cannot live with but each to there own, and without sounding condescending everyone has there own criteria when it comes to enjoying Music.

Frequency response into perfect loads does not indicate time domain performance into real loads, so anyone claiming Naim amps. have a flat frequency response as a defence of there treble performance lacks the understanding of the importance of Phase margins and time domain performance when driving "complex" loads.

In answer to the original question, Tube amps, Sugden, Quad or Meridian solid state designs spring to mind.
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I use my Naim 52 with active monitors. There are no audible problems.

I must say, the OP seems a little troll-y.
 
I'm struggling to hear the Nait XS as bright, I must say. I haven't read the whole thread but there are many XS users. Not all wrong, surely?
 
Fin said:
I'm sorry you feel that way. Im just trying to get advice, simple as.
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Yeah, yeah. I believe you, I really, honestly, truly, madly deeply do. Oh yes.

Anyway, if you can afford top-tier Naim, then you'll get an idea of how good the Naim sound can be. :)
 
Not wrong, not right.
It's just that people like different gear. And if someone posts saying they don't like it as it sounds a bit brash, others will deny it's anything to do with the amp, but maybe they just like a more energetic presentation that others label as too sharp at the treble end, etc.
 
As an addition, I'd say the MOST important thing is that if you don't like the basic sound of a Naim amp, then GET OUT NOW!
Don't get sucked into the Naim upgrade path of " add a power supply/ Naim cable/ Fraim etc" & that'll cure it, cos it won't. It'll possibly give you more of the Naim sound but it won't fundamentally alter it.
There's plenty of other flavours to try.
I speak as someone who did get sucked into the Naim upgrade ladder for way too long before I felt confident enough to say it's just not for me & sold it all for something I greatly prefer.
 
I imagine that everyone who contributes to PFM has made mistakes in choosing gear; it's part of the learning curve. Reinforced by the fact that musical 'flavours' are so personal.
 
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