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What's Opposite to the Naim sound?

stevec67 said:
Absolutely, utter nonsense end to end, I made it all up, including the bit about shopping elsewhere. I made that bit up too. I actually have a 6-pack setup with power supplies for my power supplies, I'm just in denial.

Naim always sounds lush and warm, and perfect. Anyone who thinks otherwise just needs to learn how to listen, or they need another power supply, or they need to move up the chain a little. Honest. Everything else is just made up.
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Seriously, you have no idea what you're talking about. Naim is flat response gear.
 
I went from Nait 3, to Exposure X to Rega Luna. The Luna is bang on for me now - and that means musical but without upsetting my tinnitus. When I was a bit younger I was ok with the Nait and the later X was a stepping stone (a good one at that!) to what I have now. But speaker matching makes a difference and my Mission 752f's are a joy on the end of the Luna. So there we go...
 
Robert said:
Characterful valve amplifier, or solid state with tone controls.

....or Naim with tone controls.

There is nothing inherent in the Naim circuits to make them sound thin, bright, or possessed of too much treble. Old wives tale.
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Oh I don't know... In the case of the power amps then there is much about the design that could encourage generation of fairly high order harmonics, not in huge amounts but maybe enough to impart a "cold", "metallic" edge? This is the older designs here, I've heard that some of the latest designs are totally different circuitry (?) but I've had no dealings with them.
 
Recent Naim amplifiers measure flat frequency and low distortion. They still have a high 1/3 Ohm output impedance. This is enough to reduce the ~300 Hz region a little where most speakers hit minimum impedance and exagerate low bass, crossover region and high treble where impedance tends to rise
 
davidsrsb said:
Recent Naim amplifiers measure flat frequency and low distortion. They still have a high 1/3 Ohm output impedance. This is enough to reduce the ~300 Hz region a little where most speakers hit minimum impedance and exagerate low bass, crossover region and high treble where impedance tends to rise
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Very slightly yes. This is one area that Les sorted in his version by using a normal damped inductor... which should mean they will be stable without any minimum speaker cable length etc.
 
manicatel said:
What's the budget?
The new Arcam A49 may fit the bill, or Rega, or maybe a valve amp.
If you don't like Naims presentation, ( & the most frequent complaint sonically, with their gear tends to be the treble end, as you found), Steer clear of Cyrus as well. Someone will probably suggest keeping the amp & changing the speakers, as there's a lot of committed Naim fans here.
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The new Arcam A49 sounds excellent especially with Sonus Faber Guanari speakers avoid antique valves, & class D, I could never stand the hard sound of Naim amps
 
stevec67 said:
Absolutely, utter nonsense end to end, I made it all up, including the bit about shopping elsewhere. I made that bit up too. I actually have a 6-pack setup with power supplies for my power supplies, I'm just in denial.

Naim always sounds lush and warm, and perfect. Anyone who thinks otherwise just needs to learn how to listen, or they need another power supply, or they need to move up the chain a little. Honest. Everything else is just made up.
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Absolute rubbish I would not touch a Naim amp with a barge pole, I know this will upset the NAIM fanatics
 
Arkless Repairs said:
Very slightly yes. This is one area that Les sorted in his version by using a normal damped inductor... which should mean they will be stable without any minimum speaker cable length etc.
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The effect is subtle, between 0.5dB and a maximum of about 1dB of response equalisation, but enough to be audible.
The usual claim that NAIM ampilfiers make reflexes underdamped, is a much smaller effect.
 
I remember talking to a dealer who said the naim / b&w combo always gave him a migraine. He mentioned some trick with tissue paper over (or in?) the tweeter I think that was supposed to help.
 
At the weekend I listened to Ming Da MC-7R pre-amp and MC805-A monoblocks driving Impulse Lali speakers; that setup struck me as pretty much the opposite of the Naim sound; it sounded like a gallon of syrup had been poured over everything.
 
My brother-in-law had a 42.5, 140 and Kans, extremely harsh but he loved it, tamed by a Hicap but still hard, slapped some extra regs in the 42.5 and swapped the tants for film caps and bliss prevailed.

Pete
 
jimification said:
I remember talking to a dealer who said the naim / b&w combo always gave him a migraine. He mentioned some trick with tissue paper over (or in?) the tweeter I think that was supposed to help.
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I have found tissue paper in the ears to be more successful in such cases.
 
Arkless Repairs said:
Oh I don't know... In the case of the power amps then there is much about the design that could encourage generation of fairly high order harmonics, not in huge amounts but maybe enough to impart a "cold", "metallic" edge? This is the older designs here, I've heard that some of the latest designs are totally different circuitry (?) but I've had no dealings with them.
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I total agree with Arkless, for one thing there phase margins are right on the edge - driving real loads with even slightly capacitive cables going to make things a little "peaky" in the time domain.

The Naim designs with non symmetrical output stage (are they all non symmetrical?) is a sure recipe for higher order crossover distortion - this manifests itself as "hardness" and fatigue Brightness in the treble.

Phase Modulation around the zero crossing point is a awful - again due to change of forward gain of the non symmetrical output stage design as the signal transverse the crossover region - this PM negatively effects the sound stage.

I could go on - but I'd not consider the Naim amplifier topology "blameless"... but at the end of the day there are many happy Naim owners - and that's what matters.

Personally, I'm VERY sensitive to the apparent "peaky" treble of Naim systems I've heard at dealers and worst at show - its an aspect of sound quality I cannot live with but each to there own, and without sounding condescending everyone has there own criteria when it comes to enjoying Music.

Frequency response into perfect loads does not indicate time domain performance into real loads, so anyone claiming Naim amps. have a flat frequency response as a defence of there treble performance lacks the understanding of the importance of Phase margins and time domain performance when driving "complex" loads.

In answer to the original question, Tube amps, Sugden, Quad or Meridian solid state designs spring to mind.
 
Having owned some of the newer black series Naim (122x/150x, 202/200 & Qute) I'd say that something like Sugden is the opposite of the Naim sound.

One of the combos I really liked with Naim was Neat Elites.

Not sure I would say Rega was the opposite of naim though.
 
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