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What exactly is "imaging" ?

Discussion in 'audio' started by wulbert, Jul 31, 2021.

  1. Steve 57

    Steve 57 pfm Member

    I have quite alot of 50s/60s wharfedale drivers if you want to do the bricklaying ? ... and all the suspensions are OK on mine
     
  2. tuga

    tuga Legal Alien

    Would you mind addressing/rebutting the ideas instead?

    And what’s so special about PFM that you don’t find in the other forums? An echo chamber?
    Many members here are also members in the others?
     
  3. camverton

    camverton pfm Member

    meow! Omnidirectional speakers of the MBL, German Physiks type are very thin on the ground in the UK, so inevitably a minority have heard, let alone in a domestic environment and carefully set up, and therefore few, having heard them, are likely to like them. Of course I realise you know from your reading how they sound but do you? From your posts I think not!

    As for the Wam; been a member for over a decade and still look in because there are some interesting posters (including you), some of whom post here. It’s certainly completely different to the Wam of old, both for worse and better. Good to have a choice though.
     
  4. tuga

    tuga Legal Alien

    minority speakers indeed
     
  5. Colin L

    Colin L High-tech low-life

    From long experience Ive learned that attempting to rebut arguments on a hifi forum is largely a futile exercise. No-one ever changes their mind, especially someone as strident and cock-sure in their opinions as you.

    If you’re active on three or four forums I’d suggest that you need to spend more time listening to music and less on the tech. Forums are for entertainment but some seem to pour their self-esteem into them and wave their opinions around as a “look-at-me” flag.
     
    marshanp and mega lord like this.
  6. tuga

    tuga Legal Alien

    I must have touched a nerve... Sorry
     
    Steve 57 likes this.
  7. cooky1257

    cooky1257 pfm Member

    Spinorama would have been a convenient useful tool for those designers and engineers back in the day, the physics hasn't changed though and many of us- including you, seem happy to listen 40 year old loudspeaker designs as they get a lot of the fundamentals right.
     
  8. tuga

    tuga Legal Alien

    I agree that many old speakers get the fundamentals right. In fact it is somewhat baffling to see contemporary designs get fundamentals wrong in a time where even a DIY or a YouTuber can easily perform his own measurements for little money.

    I am not a big fan of the Spinorama to be honest, by itself it’s insufficient for characterising performance and an oversimplification. It can be an effective marketing tool with the (pious) objectivist crowd and has gained new traction thanks to ASR.

    Audiophilia is sorely missing a more balanced (mind/heart) approach from the influencers. They’re either wearing blinkers or their mind is so open the brain has fallen off...
     
  9. Steve 57

    Steve 57 pfm Member

    I think that's the issue with most of modern hifi design
    The fundamentals are based on a few inadequate measurements which do not really relate to sound quality, but are marketed to be valid.. and so many fall for that, inc myself in the past.

    Coupled with the fact there is so much real world variation in gear that supposedly measures almost perfectly .. there is a rat to be smelled !
     
  10. tuga

    tuga Legal Alien

    Demand for large enough speakers has dropped too and audio as any other business is driven by demand. Perhaps because homes have been slowly but steadily shrinking in size and because music playing/listening has found new ways.

    High end, apparently in my view thanks to magazines and perhaps the retail chain, has put an extra nail in the coffin by generating an artificial inflation of prices which does not reflect the performance...
     
  11. Steve 57

    Steve 57 pfm Member

    Yes, that's true but I know large hi efficiency speakers *can* sound much better than most slimline usually ported loudspeakers.. mine certainly do..
    But in my view the advantages of high efficiency set ups are geared towards the diyer, not the hifi shops.. the ott pricing of much of it puts it out of reach of most pockets anyway.... Which is a shame, as less than 6 or 7k spent on good components can, if done properly with a little knowledge, woodworking and soldering thrown in.. produce a stunning lifelike sound
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2021
    tuga likes this.
  12. ToTo Man

    ToTo Man the band not the dog

    I don't recall if it was in this thread or another but someone linked to a website that had recordings to test the phantom imaging / spatial abilities of your speaker setup. I don't suppose anyone remembers what the website was?
     
  13. ToTo Man

    ToTo Man the band not the dog

    I've just done the following test on my Ditton 66s to investigate my dissatisfaction with their phantom centre imaging at their current location in my room (I have them very wide apart and close to the corners of my room, toed-in to cross in front of my listening seat):



    My results:
    !) Pass
    2) Pass
    3) Pass
    4) Fail? The Phantom Centre Stability is dead central for bass, but gradually and steadily moves out laterally towards the speakers as frequency increases.
    5) Pass
    6) Fail? Huge difference noticed for bass, significant difference noticed for midrange, but a much smaller difference noticed for treble.
    7) Pass
    8) Pass
    9) Pass
    10) Pass
    11) Pass
    12) Didn't test

    I'd be grateful if others could run test segments 4), 5) and 6) on your speaker systems and report back, if it's not too much trouble? Thanks.

    EDIT - Direct links to test segments below, courtesy of @tuga:

    0:00 Channel Identification
    0:04 Channel Levels
    0:13 Channel Matching (Bass, Mid, Treble)
    0:31 Phantom Center Stability <-- 4
    1:11 Stereo Width <-- 5
    1:51 Polarity Alignment (Bass, Mid, Treble) <-- 6
    2:09 Continuous Sine Sweep
    3:20 Stepped Sine Sweep
    4:26 Bass Sweep Rise & Fall
    4:35 Room Echoes
    4:44 Compressor/Limiter Detection
    4:55 Unit Impulse
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2021
    Durmbo, John Phillips and tuga like this.
  14. tuga

    tuga Legal Alien

    I am listing the tests for reference:

    0:00 Channel Identification
    0:04 Channel Levels
    0:13 Channel Matching (Bass, Mid, Treble)
    0:31 Phantom Center Stability <-- 4
    1:11 Stereo Width <-- 5
    1:51 Polarity Alignment (Bass, Mid, Treble) <-- 6
    2:09 Continuous Sine Sweep
    3:20 Stepped Sine Sweep
    4:26 Bass Sweep Rise & Fall
    4:35 Room Echoes
    4:44 Compressor/Limiter Detection
    4:55 Unit Impulse
     
    ToTo Man likes this.
  15. ToTo Man

    ToTo Man the band not the dog

    Thanks, I'll add that to my post as well if that's ok.
     
    tuga likes this.
  16. tuga

    tuga Legal Alien

    I'm sure many people would love to have 4-way speakers with 15" woofers but not only are there few available and at astronomical prices but they wouldn't fit most rooms either and/or get SWMBO approval.
     
  17. RJohan

    RJohan pfm Member

    Why four way? A pair of JBL M2's would do very well for me, thank you. They do go under the category very expensive, though.
     
  18. tuga

    tuga Legal Alien

    They've been designed for high-SPL and a pretty Spinorama (it doesn't mean they won't sound good though).

    Edit: from JBL I'd rather have the S9800s or S9900s (with a pair of subs).
     
  19. John Phillips

    John Phillips pfm Member

    If you start from a 15" bass unit and want a reasonable "native" match between driver directivities at all cross-over frequencies then I suspect four-way is easier than three and much easier than two. The M2 has a rather significant waveguide/horn on its tweeter to get a good directivity match from two very mis-matched driver sizes.
     
  20. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    Seems fine here, a good solid central image that does not collapse at any of the frequencies. This surprised me somewhat as I know neither my Tannoys or ears are perfect in their pair matching! I do set the system up focusing on this though, e.g. I won’t accept anything less than Miles Davis standing exactly in the centre in a believable fashion on a mono album! This system is an equilateral triangle of about 2.2m with a little toe-in.
     
    ToTo Man likes this.

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