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Way to go Greta

Cheese said:
Which I happen to think too, people are responsible at least partly. An idea you apparently do not agree with.

No matter how I turn things, I always come to the conclusion that your point is that the government is, in the end, at fault. I guess what remains of my brain is wrongly polarized.
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I’m not qualified to comment on your brain, but you’ve also misunderstood.

Of course people are ultimately to blame for the increased emissions. But that’s like saying if people didn’t move around, work, eat or breathe, we wouldn’t be where we are today. Or that if there were only a third as many of us, we wouldn’t be in the same mess. All true, but misses the point.

Individually, there is only so much we can do, and shifting the blame on to us lets governments off the moral hook. Which lets them evade their moral responsibility to bring about the conditions to deal with it. Which is precisely how we’ve got to where we are today.

Governments can legislate, they can force people, and corporations, into fundamental changes. You don’t think the surge in electric cars is because the car manufacturers collectively woke up and decided today was the day to go electric? No, this was driven by government (EU) emissions regulation.

Some people will always act responsibly and do the right thing - the Centre for Alternative Technology has been going since I was a kid, but you’ll not get mass take up unless and until governments create the conditions for it. Putting the blame on the individual allows governments to abdicate that responsibility.
 
Ragaman said:
How have the human race impacted climate change?

What have governments not acted upon?

Do you drive, lived off fossil fuels, benefited from nuclear energy.

You exist because of the industrial revolution.

You must believe you are immune from such luxury if you believe you have not contributed.
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I’ve replied to Cheese. Read that.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
I’m not qualified to comment on your brain, but you’ve also misunderstood.

Of course people are ultimately to blame for the increased emissions. But that’s like saying if people didn’t move around, work, eat or breathe, we wouldn’t be where we are today. Or that if there were only a third as many of us, we wouldn’t be in the same mess. All true, but misses the point.

Individually, there is only so much we can do, and shifting the blame on to us lets governments off the moral hook. Which lets them evade their moral responsibility to bring about the conditions to deal with it. Which is precisely how we’ve got to where we are today.

Governments can legislate, they can force people, and corporations, into fundamental changes. You don’t think the surge in electric cars is because the car manufacturers collectively woke up and decided today was the day to go electric? No, this was driven by government (EU) emissions regulation.

Some people will always act responsibly and do the right thing - the Centre for Alternative Technology has been going since I was a kid, but you’ll not get mass take up unless and until governments create the conditions for it. Putting the blame on the individual allows governments to abdicate that responsibility.
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Governments didn't act, the population carried on regardless. All to blame, sorry.

Us not being forced to take action does not let us off the hook & having read much from Greta, she would happily accept the human race has been living the high life at the expense of the planet regardless of government interaction.

The greens have been spouting this stuff for years, are they running the country.
 
Ragaman said:
Governments didn't act, the population carried on regardless. All to blame, sorry.

Us not being forced to take action does not let us off the hook.
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I didn’t say that it did. Like I say, you misunderstood my earlier post, and are now on a frolic of your own. Enjoy.
 
Ragaman said:
The greens have been spouting this stuff for years, are they running the country.
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Another late edit Raga.

This is my point. The facts were known, but governments ignored them. Because they were politically inconvenient. Blaming us because not enough people voted green is just to miss the point. As I said, some people will act responsibly and to the right thing, but getting enough to do so requires government action. Non-Green governments can’t escape responsibility just because they are not the Green Party.

And yes, if you want to argue it’s our fault because most of us didn’t vote Green, fill your boots. But it doesn’t contradict what I said, and have repeatedly said.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
Another late edit Raga.

This is my point. The facts were known, but governments ignored them. Because they were politically inconvenient. Blaming us because not enough people voted green is just to miss the point. As I said, some people will act responsibly and to the right thing, but getting enough to do so requires government action. Non-Green governments can’t escape responsibility just because they are not the Green Party.

And yes, if you want to argue it’s our fault because most of us didn’t vote Green, fill your boots. But it doesn’t contradict what I said, and have repeatedly said.
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The facts were know to everyone. Governments & the population didn't act. What the planet is facing cannot be conveniently attributed to a lack of government action alone. We all have to take responsibility & it's this that could, maybe, slow the destruction down but passing the buck will not work.
 
Ragaman said:
Having concern for Greta's mental health issues while dealing with the task of attempting to change the mindset of the governments around the world is not a sin.
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Who said it was a sin? Floundering around with unfounded concerns is at best unhelpful.

She has done a good job of bringing this issue to the youth & is being taken notice of mainly down to the fact she is 16 & seems to have more passion & interest in this subject than many of the governments around the world but it now has to become a world issue, not a celebrity issue.
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What are World, and Celebrity, issues?

I do feel her recent suggestions do fall in line with her mental health issues as I said at the beginning.
You don't, you know she's fine & capable of dealing with anything thrown at her, which is your prerogative, we disagree, it's a forum, it happens.
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She has the support of her parents. Do you really believe you know their daughter better then them?

Governments didn't act, the population carried on regardless. All to blame, sorry.
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Drivel. Many people and governments have taken action. The first environmental groups formed in the 1850s.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
You don’t think the surge in electric cars is because the car manufacturers collectively woke up and decided today was the day to go electric? No, this was driven by government (EU) emissions regulation.
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Good example, but it also highlights the fact that a good portion of goodwill by the car buyers remains necessary. Over here you pay much less road tax if you drive a hybrid car, and no tax at all if you have an electric car (even Tesla drivers, which I think is over the top). Said cars remain more expensive than conventional ones, and their performance resp. range leave a lot to be desired. I admire the buyers of such cars really, I could afford the few extra CHF but I don't do it, so I could indeed improve my behaviour environment-wise. It's not the government in the end.
 
Ragaman said:
The facts were know to everyone. Governments & the population didn't act. What the planet is facing cannot be conveniently attributed to a lack of government action alone. We all have to take responsibility & it's this that could, maybe, slow the destruction down but passing the buck will not work.
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Yes, we all have to take responsibility, but governments restrict the degree of agency we, as individuals, have. I can't refuse to run my appliances on coal or gas fired electricity. If I trade my car for an electric one, again, I can't turn away fossil fuel generation. I can't use the train to get to work, because the service is slow, unreliable and infrequent. I can't buy local, because my council has pandered to the big supermarkets, which have driven the small shops to closure.

And so-on, and so-on. Blaming individuals for the 'wrong' choices completely misses the point. The real power here is vested in the people who get to decide what choices we are offered. That's government, and no amount of deflection will change that.
 
It's true, but they (government) have an unenviable tightrope to walk. If they make our lives a misery they're F*****d, and if they do nothing, ditto. Add in that politics is going through an all time low in terms of public approval ratings and whoever is 'in' and whatever they do, it's likely we will hate it.
What I'd like is a simple, effective plan to allow the UK to be a pathfinder in solving it's own problems. Clean up the air on this continent, secure the energy production future with renewable, green sources, cut emissions by 70 or 80%, but allow industry to compete globally, promote public transport etc and then take those proven solutions to a world stage and offer to help others who, by then, even IF inhabited entirely by the descendants of Cooky and Trump will know that they are indeed deep in the poo, will pay us for the aid, and we can become rich I tell you RICH!!!! hahahahaha
bags I be president?
 
We can all do our bit. We can eat less meat or none at all. We can walk, bike, take public transit, carpool, drive only when necessary, make do with one (!) car.

Governments can encourage environmentally benign technologies through subsidies and discourage those that aren't through taxes. Wastefulness can be regulated and taxed just as efficiency can be encouraged through tax breaks and subsidies.

Business and industry can produce more efficiently and make products and offer services that use less resources and energy. Stuff can be designed to be repaired, reused and upgraded instead of replaced.

Everyone and every sector can do something and should do something, unless there’s a planet B we can migrate to.

I don’t put Greta on a pedestal and I don’t think she’s contributed more than the many climate scientists who have been doing painstakingly difficult research and sounding the alarm about what could happen if we continue the path we’ve been following, but this girl has made people en mass take notice and is getting them to change their behaviour and for that I’m gratefully.

Joe
 
Climate change: Heatwave made up to 3C hotter by warming

The searing July heatwave that hit Europe last week was made both more likely and more intense by human-induced climate change, scientists say.
A rapid attribution study says that heating added up to 3C to the intensity of the event that scorched the UK, France and the Netherlands.
In France, the heatwave was made at least 10 times and up to 100 times more likely by human activities.
The shorter event in the UK was made at least twice as likely, experts say.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-49205072

Cheese said:
Still, for your information, this thread is about Greta Thunberg and environmental issues. Your posts don't suggest you've noticed this.
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11/10 for unintentional irony.
 
Last week they imposed a ban on using water for all sorts of things. No garden watering. No car washing. No swimming pool topping.

But they also announced that every household will get 3 cubic meters of water free in an attempt to stop people buying bottled water.
 
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