advertisement


Very short speaker cable runs- advice?

simonpyeman said:
Do you mean, whether the passive is before or after the long run?
Click to expand...

That is an important factor of course but not what I meant no. Obviously the passive should come after the long interconnect run and this is how I have my own system set up but apparently there are weirdo's out there who care about aesthetics and won't have the passive on the floor between the speakers next to the power amp as I have things:rolleyes:

A 10K or 20K passive should be fine with 5m of reasonably low capacitance interconnect if putting the long cable after the passive.
 
Arkless Electronics said:
Long interconnects and short speaker cable is the right way yes.
Click to expand...
Isn't this over-generalising though? Surely it depends on the gauge of the wire and the loudspeaker's impedance curve?

IME the longer the interconnect the more HF rolloff there is and the poorer the SNR becomes (for single-ended runs at least). I did a crude test to confirm this by recording the line output of my Yamaha integrated into an ADC using 1m and 5m runs of Van Damme XKE. I'd like to do the same test with my speaker cables but the measurement would need to be performed in the acoustical domain using a mic to detect FR changes, which is obviously going to be less sensitive/reliable than the basic electrical measurements I did on the interconnects.
 
ToTo Man said:
Isn't this over-generalising though? Surely it depends on the gauge of the wire and the loudspeaker's impedance curve?

IME the longer the interconnect the more HF rolloff there is and the poorer the SNR becomes (for single-ended runs at least). I did a crude test to confirm this by recording the line output of my Yamaha integrated into an ADC using 1m and 5m runs of Van Damme XKE. I'd like to do the same test with my speaker cables but the measurement would need to be performed in the acoustical domain using a mic to detect FR changes, which is obviously going to be less sensitive/reliable than the basic electrical measurements I did on the interconnects.
Click to expand...

No it's always the best way. If you are getting roll off before 50+ KHz you are doing something badly wrong and decently screened coax should be as quiet as anyone could want. Differences of say 98dB S/N and 104dB S/N are purely academic... both are silent in practice.

Obviously if using say 6mm speaker cable then 5m or more runs are no problem anyway but it makes sense to have the bit prone to resistive losses etc (speaker cable), and those losses effecting damping factor and hence interacting with speaker impedance curve as short and thick as possible hence ideally power amp between speakers with shortest cable runs and then use long interconnects. With a 10K passive and 100pF/m coax then worst case roll off with 10m of coax is -3dB @ 63KHz. With a solid state active pre then in most cases you should be fine even with 20m of coax.
 
Right, I've just cut my ten channels of Linn K400 cable from 5 metres to two metres by moving f knows how many tons of amps and a pair of gravestone crossovers. Can't say it sounds any worse but the recent annoying hum isn't solved. Caramba it was dusty down there! The nice thing about my kit is that I get a different system every time I power down and reorganise because I can never remember where all the gain dials were. It can take days to get it back to where I imagine it was before. Oh well. Sounding great though. Maybe I'm reaching the age where it sounds better every day without changing.
 
Arkless Electronics said:
No it's always the best way. If you are getting roll off before 50+ KHz you are doing something badly wrong and decently screened coax should be as quiet as anyone could want. Differences of say 98dB S/N and 104dB S/N are purely academic... both are silent in practice.

Obviously if using say 6mm speaker cable then 5m or more runs are no problem anyway but it makes sense to have the bit prone to resistive losses etc (speaker cable), and those losses effecting damping factor and hence interacting with speaker impedance curve as short and thick as possible hence ideally power amp between speakers with shortest cable runs and then use long interconnects. With a 10K passive and 100pF/m coax then worst case roll off with 10m of coax is -3dB @ 63KHz. With a solid state active pre then in most cases you should be fine even with 20m of coax.
Click to expand...
Yep, much to the annoyance of uni students I’ve had working with me, and some musicians who think all live sound technicians should work to a textbook standards, I’ve ran single ended devices (electro-acoustic acoustic guitars/keyboards etc) straight down a 50 meter multicore to the desk via adapters because it sounds quieter, more dynamic and just all round better than it does through a w@nky DI box, for years without a single issue. I carry DI boxes “just in case”, but for me, it’s like having a fire extinguisher, ie, they will mostly never be used... and a live stage is a much more electrically noisy environment than any normal domestic room.
 
VanDerGraaf said:
This is what I thought, but always like to ask in terms of hi-fi. I didn't opt for Van Damme this time, but got Sommer Albedo instead. I love the various Sommer cables I already use, both at home and on stage/recording. I have no doubt that something similarly specced in the hi-fi world would have cost hundreds... :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

I'm in a similar situation and I also like the Sommer solutions a lot.
The Albedo was my go-to solution if I needed a low capaciance cable for some MM's that like to see around 200 Pikofarad in total. (With TA inner of 80pF & phonestage minimum set of 100pF it's getting tough)
The Albedo is good with around 50pF & generally a good cable.

For MC, the Epiloge was even better than the Albedo as well as a generally very good Klotz MC5000 I also tried.
For the money @ around 3€/ meter the MC5000 is an absolute steal & for a quick and uncomplicated installation to simply use that for everything is not the worst decision one can make..

In my case, with my amps or whatever it depends on it turned out for good sources Epiloge was making an astonishing positive difference on the outter TA cable and I liked it a bit better then the Klotz from the DAC, too.
So for the Hifi sources (2) I tend to use Epiloge and from the pre-amp to my amp, the Klotz MC5000 was better than the Sommer..the Epiloge sounded a bit on the thin side there for whatever reason.

So for the route to the power amps the MC5000 is my go-to solution.
Also from the surround AV pre into the stereo pre as well as from the AV to all other amps.

The very good and cheap solution to me with speaker cable is still the Linn, sounds very similar if not the same to NACA 5 or Van den Hul 'The Clearwater' for instance.
I also put my pwr amp between the speakers now & will get short runs to get the top of my rack free for a studio R2R & will hence have a very short run of under 2 meter LS cable each side.

So far if you want a significantly different sounding cable to the above with better (lower) capacitance figures due to better dielecticum / isolation like polypropylene or teflon, you can try some Straight Wire.
The Rhapsody II is the only one I got lent ~around a year ago.
That one was significantly different sounding to what I was used to..and due the fact I tend to like more what I am used to until I've had a longer period to go back and forth between 2 solutions to evaluate over a longer term which is really a better item and I'm not just hooked to some fancy effect some units make,
also in view of the price of the cable I let go of it quickly by then. (needed 8+ meters then)
Now when the long run of Klotz 5000 has arrived and I can move my pwr amp, I'll give the Straight Wire a second attempt. It might be I prefer it..not sure yet.
In vfm its chances are the ones of an ice-cube in hell, no question.

My rule of thumb is to try something simple with PVC isolation (technically said to be inferior/ if you hear it: ??)
and something with better isolation technology / lower capacitance like teflon or polypropylene to hear if you like that and if your amp and speakers make any difference from the change.
 
Last edited:
You will get better results keeping the interconnect cables short and use long speaker cables.
 
dweezil said:
This is getting as enlightening as the Citywire Economics Forum!

I'm on 8m Mark Grant balanced and 1.5m Supra Classic.
Click to expand...

The difference will be much less if you are using balanced cables than if single-ended cables are being used.
 
G T Audio said:
The difference will be much less if you are using balanced cables than if single-ended cables are being used.
Click to expand...

First lesson was in my youth getting a reel of Tandy Super Duper speaker cable for a long run so now look at getting cable suitable for the job.

Longest RCA run is my tape loop and tbh it doesn't seem to degrade the signal.
 
Arkless Electronics said:
FWIW I utterly disagree with everything said by GT here including the balanced/unbalanced bit.
Click to expand...

I guess everyone's findings can vary Jez, but I was led to believe longer interconnects with shorter speaker cables was the way. Have you tried the balanced/unbalanced bit with the leads at 8+metres?
 
If one prefers balanced cables, one can certainly get a balanced passive switcher and volume control from several vendors, including Gold Point, which is excellent.

Probably isn't necessary, given reasonably short runs in our typical systems.
 
I stick by what I have said earlier as I have proven this 30+ years ago when I was running an ARC SP8 pre-amp driving a pair of Quicksilver mono valve amplifiers. The Quicksilver amps were mounted directly behind the speakers and only used a few centimetres of wire, probably no more than 30cm (12"). I also have done the same experiment with a pair of Mark Levinson 6A preamps driving a pair of Mark Levinson ML2 Monoblock amps, again with just a few centimetres of wire between the power amps and the speakers. The interconnect cables were very high quality (Siltech) coax screened cables and about 10 metres in length. Using the above configuration I noticed a loss of dynamic range and a sound that was "laid back" compared to how the system sounded previously when it was wired with short interconnects (1 metre long) and long speaker cables. At the time I mentioned this to "hifi_dave" who resides on here and is a very well established Hi-Fi dealer and has been in the industry since the 1970s and he confirmed the same. Not sure if hifi_dave contributes on here any more but if he does I am sure he will be along to comment soon.

A year or too after experiencing this I sold my ML6 preamps and bought a Mark Levinson 26S fully balanced preamp. I tried the same experiment again using 10 metre balanced cables and found they were an improvement over the SE cables over that length but I still preferred using short balanced interconnect cables and long speaker cables.

Obviously, this is my experience but there seems to be an overriding thing going on here, in that if some can't hear the difference, or think that technically it shouldn't, therefore it won't make a difference. We all hear things differently due to our hearing, especially as we age, our perception of sound and the level or quality of sound we are used to, and the Hi-Fi equipment we use all has a bearing on what we hear, or are able to hear. I have very sensitive hearing so I can probably hear things others cannot. I can certainly hear differences between electronic components (diodes, resistors, capacitors, power supplies etc) and this has been invaluable to me in producing my electronics over the last 25 years which have been reviewed around the world. Also previously to that, I spent a considerable amount of time restoring and upgrading vintage and modern Hi-Fi which has been well documented in various Hi-Fi magazines.

To sum up:
1. Long interconnects have a much larger negative influence on audio performance the longer the cables are. Any RCA to RCA cable over 3 metres in length I would recommend going balanced if that is an option.
2. Preamps, depending on their design, vary in performance in how they can drive power amps over long interconnect cable runs and some are better than others.
3. Interconnect cables have differing specs (R, L & C) which have more of an impact on performance due to the signal level (voltage and current) being much lower coming from a pre-amp output than that coming from a power amplifier.
4. Power amplifiers are designed to drive low impedance loads (1 ohm to 30 ohms) with higher voltage and currents, and due to speaker cables having much larger conductor surface areas, plus lower R, L and C and this has much less of an effect on the signal as it passes along the cable.

There are more I could list but I think you get the gist...
 
Salamander said:
I guess everyone's findings can vary Jez, but I was led to believe longer interconnects with shorter speaker cables was the way. Have you tried the balanced/unbalanced bit with the leads at 8+metres?
Click to expand...

It is indeed the way! I don't need to try what you suggest as theory tells us all we need to know.
 
G T Audio said:
I stick by what I have said earlier as I have proven this 30+ years ago when I was running an ARC SP8 pre-amp driving a pair of Quicksilver mono valve amplifiers. The Quicksilver amps were mounted directly behind the speakers and only used a few centimetres of wire, probably no more than 30cm (12"). I also have done the same experiment with a pair of Mark Levinson 6A preamps driving a pair of Mark Levinson ML2 Monoblock amps, again with just a few centimetres of wire between the power amps and the speakers. The interconnect cables were very high quality (Siltech) coax screened cables and about 10 metres in length. Using the above configuration I noticed a loss of dynamic range and a sound that was "laid back" compared to how the system sounded previously when it was wired with short interconnects (1 metre long) and long speaker cables. At the time I mentioned this to "hifi_dave" who resides on here and is a very well established Hi-Fi dealer and has been in the industry since the 1970s and he confirmed the same. Not sure if hifi_dave contributes on here any more but if he does I am sure he will be along to comment soon.

A year or too after experiencing this I sold my ML6 preamps and bought a Mark Levinson 26S fully balanced preamp. I tried the same experiment again using 10 metre balanced cables and found they were an improvement over the SE cables over that length but I still preferred using short balanced interconnect cables and long speaker cables.

Obviously, this is my experience but there seems to be an overriding thing going on here, in that if some can't hear the difference, or think that technically it shouldn't, therefore it won't make a difference. We all hear things differently due to our hearing, especially as we age, our perception of sound and the level or quality of sound we are used to, and the Hi-Fi equipment we use all has a bearing on what we hear, or are able to hear. I have very sensitive hearing so I can probably hear things others cannot. I can certainly hear differences between electronic components (diodes, resistors, capacitors, power supplies etc) and this has been invaluable to me in producing my electronics over the last 25 years which have been reviewed around the world. Also previously to that, I spent a considerable amount of time restoring and upgrading vintage and modern Hi-Fi which has been well documented in various Hi-Fi magazines.

To sum up:
1. Long interconnects have a much larger negative influence on audio performance the longer the cables are. Any RCA to RCA cable over 3 metres in length I would recommend going balanced if that is an option.
2. Preamps, depending on their design, vary in performance in how they can drive power amps over long interconnect cable runs and some are better than others.
3. Interconnect cables have differing specs (R, L & C) which have more of an impact on performance due to the signal level (voltage and current) being much lower coming from a pre-amp output than that coming from a power amplifier.
4. Power amplifiers are designed to drive low impedance loads (1 ohm to 30 ohms) with higher voltage and currents, and due to speaker cables having much larger conductor surface areas, plus lower R, L and C and this has much less of an effect on the signal as it passes along the cable.

There are more I could list but I think you get the gist...
Click to expand...

Total and utter tosh and simply wrong in pretty much every way.
 
G T Audio said:
I stick by what I have said earlier as I have proven this 30+ years ago when I was running an ARC SP8 pre-amp driving a pair of Quicksilver mono valve amplifiers. The Quicksilver amps were mounted directly behind the speakers and only used a few centimetres of wire, probably no more than 30cm (12"). I also have done the same experiment with a pair of Mark Levinson 6A preamps driving a pair of Mark Levinson ML2 Monoblock amps, again with just a few centimetres of wire between the power amps and the speakers. The interconnect cables were very high quality (Siltech) coax screened cables and about 10 metres in length. Using the above configuration I noticed a loss of dynamic range and a sound that was "laid back" compared to how the system sounded previously when it was wired with short interconnects (1 metre long) and long speaker cables. At the time I mentioned this to "hifi_dave" who resides on here and is a very well established Hi-Fi dealer and has been in the industry since the 1970s and he confirmed the same. Not sure if hifi_dave contributes on here any more but if he does I am sure he will be along to comment soon.

A year or too after experiencing this I sold my ML6 preamps and bought a Mark Levinson 26S fully balanced preamp. I tried the same experiment again using 10 metre balanced cables and found they were an improvement over the SE cables over that length but I still preferred using short balanced interconnect cables and long speaker cables.

Obviously, this is my experience but there seems to be an overriding thing going on here, in that if some can't hear the difference, or think that technically it shouldn't, therefore it won't make a difference. We all hear things differently due to our hearing, especially as we age, our perception of sound and the level or quality of sound we are used to, and the Hi-Fi equipment we use all has a bearing on what we hear, or are able to hear. I have very sensitive hearing so I can probably hear things others cannot. I can certainly hear differences between electronic components (diodes, resistors, capacitors, power supplies etc) and this has been invaluable to me in producing my electronics over the last 25 years which have been reviewed around the world. Also previously to that, I spent a considerable amount of time restoring and upgrading vintage and modern Hi-Fi which has been well documented in various Hi-Fi magazines.

To sum up:
1. Long interconnects have a much larger negative influence on audio performance the longer the cables are. Any RCA to RCA cable over 3 metres in length I would recommend going balanced if that is an option.
2. Preamps, depending on their design, vary in performance in how they can drive power amps over long interconnect cable runs and some are better than others.
3. Interconnect cables have differing specs (R, L & C) which have more of an impact on performance due to the signal level (voltage and current) being much lower coming from a pre-amp output than that coming from a power amplifier.
4. Power amplifiers are designed to drive low impedance loads (1 ohm to 30 ohms) with higher voltage and currents, and due to speaker cables having much larger conductor surface areas, plus lower R, L and C and this has much less of an effect on the signal as it passes along the cable.

There are more I could list but I think you get the gist...
Click to expand...
I'd go along with that.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.


advertisement


Back
Top