Verve Acoustic Sounds Series Reissues
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Tony L
Administrator
Why? What don’t you like? I’ve not got many (Analogue Productions Rollins Way Out West, Acoustic Sounds Coltrane ALS, Getz Gilberto and Armstrong), but they are all stunning IMO. I really can’t see anything to complain about; really good mastering and nice quiet well-centred pressings, and in the case of the Acoustic Sounds stuff Tone Poet-grade covers. I’m in for more for sure.
mikechadwick
pfm Member
I'd be interested to know why you're not a fan. My only gripe is the 2 x 45 Lp series but they aren't alone with that. Otherwise, imho, top quality.
Tony L
Administrator
I’ve avoided all 2x45 issues aside from I have the ORG label Crescent which I’d happily swap out for an original or if Acoustic Sounds do it as I just don’t like breaking sides that way. It’s the reason I own no Music Matters despite them being superb. My Analogue Productions Way Out West is the original 33rpm issue, and it is superb!
mikechadwick
pfm Member
I've got the original AP Way Out West as well - stunning record. Whilst I was watching the Kassem video I noticed this:
poco a poco
I'm Jim
Although I posted the video here I was a bit put off by his typical salesman hype in it. For instance I think I'll stick with my 1984 KOB rather than buying his expensive 200g UHQR that will be pressed from the same (worn?) metal work they used for the 1995 Classic release. 
With regard to the AS Verve's I bought 4 of those released so far in the end which was more than I intended. 2 were just as a comparison to originals I have. Slightly different, but overall no better or worst sound wise. The best two for me were Nina, Pastel Blues and Peggy Lee Black Coffee that sound really excellent, but I don't have decent copies of either. The Covers although by Stoughton are not quite up to the Tone Poet or Music Matters ones where in most cases they went back and found the originals of the art work and recreated them. The AS ones are good scans and the QC over typo's was a bit lax, but the I am not particularly bothered by this.
For me the main problem is that on the whole recordings they are choosing to release are not very inspired and unfortunately I am not expecting much from this years Impulse choices. I have OG's or good copies of the ones all the ones mentioned. I would love them to do the Alice Coltrane's mentioned, but I think these will be in Impulse's own releases and it's rumoured they will use the digital masters they have used before for these. I'm not sure if it's Kassem or Universal that is making the choices, but in either case I think it is based on what they are pretty sure they will sell. Perhaps the best comparison is with the BN Classics, but with better covers. No bad thing for new collectors.
With regard to the AS Verve's I bought 4 of those released so far in the end which was more than I intended. 2 were just as a comparison to originals I have. Slightly different, but overall no better or worst sound wise. The best two for me were Nina, Pastel Blues and Peggy Lee Black Coffee that sound really excellent, but I don't have decent copies of either. The Covers although by Stoughton are not quite up to the Tone Poet or Music Matters ones where in most cases they went back and found the originals of the art work and recreated them. The AS ones are good scans and the QC over typo's was a bit lax, but the I am not particularly bothered by this.
For me the main problem is that on the whole recordings they are choosing to release are not very inspired and unfortunately I am not expecting much from this years Impulse choices. I have OG's or good copies of the ones all the ones mentioned. I would love them to do the Alice Coltrane's mentioned, but I think these will be in Impulse's own releases and it's rumoured they will use the digital masters they have used before for these. I'm not sure if it's Kassem or Universal that is making the choices, but in either case I think it is based on what they are pretty sure they will sell. Perhaps the best comparison is with the BN Classics, but with better covers. No bad thing for new collectors.
mikechadwick
pfm Member
“Although I posted the video here I was a bit put off by his typical salesman hype in it. For instance I think I'll stick with my 1984 KOB rather than buying his expensive 200g UHQR that will be pressed from the same (worn?) metal work they used for the 1995 Classic release”
Surely they will cut new lacquers from whatever Master they have and create stampers from those - any other option would be crazy.
Surely they will cut new lacquers from whatever Master they have and create stampers from those - any other option would be crazy.
Tony L
Administrator
I’d kill for his white label test pressing of KoB! That is one of many albums I’d love to find a good US original of. I’ve got the Nimbus and the original Classic 2xLP, so the only thing that could tempt me there is a 1st press.
To be honest I can think of very few if any jazz titles where I’d not swap my fancy audiophile cut for a mint US original.
To be honest I can think of very few if any jazz titles where I’d not swap my fancy audiophile cut for a mint US original.
Graham H
pfm Member
Couldn’t agree more with you, considering what is in the Impulse and Verve catalogues. I watched the Kassem video and he came across as someone who wants the best version of his favourites, doesn’t seem to be too inclined to step outside his comfort zone.
The good news is that all the tapes that Saturn sent to Impulse were returned to Saturn Inc, including the tapes that where slated and not released by Impulse because sales were too low on the first batch. The Saturn estate is in safe legal hands under Michael D Anderson who is overseeing mastering to 24-bit and licensing. All of the released Impulse titles were reissues of previous Saturn titles anyhow (as far as I can recall). Many of the Impulse titles have been reissued in the last few years as 24-bit files or as LPs and CDs on selected record labels, such as Art Yard and Cosmic Myth etc. Doubt whether we will see any Ra on Impulse reissues, but you never know.
Tony L
Administrator
I’d love an Acoustic Sounds-grade Impulse of Space Is The Place!
Graham H
pfm Member
Even that was an Impulse reissue, the original was on Blue Thumb (I have a copy here). It’s also the most likely to be reissued, and the only Ra title to be kept in catalogue by Impulse/Universal, can’t think of any others. The 90s CD of this sounds good too. But I hear what you are saying, I’d buy it too.
I have a number of Analogue Productions LPs, admittedly the earlier ones. They all sounded to me like your typical audiophile reissues (in a bad way): rolled off highs, thick midrange and bloated bass, and lacking in excitement or attack. Just a smooth warm sound. They were bad enough to put me off all of Chad Kassem's output since. When he says that his reissues improve on the originals, I'd have to disagree. They may sound closer to what he prefers, but they don't rock my boat. I'd urge you to compare any of his reissues with a nice condition original and then come to your own conclusions.
Chad's choice of material also tends to be very safe and popular.
But there are plenty of audiophiles out there who swear by his reissues, so don't mind me. I should point out that by and large I am not a fan of audiophile reissues and I almost always prefer to have originals or even slightly later repressings. There are audiophile reissue labels that I do like, such as the defunct Classic Records, Music Matters and Tone Poet and some of the Speakers Corner records.
Chad's choice of material also tends to be very safe and popular.
But there are plenty of audiophiles out there who swear by his reissues, so don't mind me. I should point out that by and large I am not a fan of audiophile reissues and I almost always prefer to have originals or even slightly later repressings. There are audiophile reissue labels that I do like, such as the defunct Classic Records, Music Matters and Tone Poet and some of the Speakers Corner records.
poco a poco
I'm Jim
Mike, I was really being a bit factitious about his early age master being used for this, but for the Getz Gilberto at least they did use metal work they already had cut, but this 33rpm master had not been used I believe. It was produced at the same time as the 45 rpm ones.
The normal process is to produce a mother (one for each side) using electroplating from the lacquer and this mother is used to produce the stampers for the records. The mother will normally produce 10 stampers before it will show significant wear (less for top quality). A stamper will usually produce 500 records at the best quality, but typically they are used to produce 1,000 - 1,500 more if it is a company that does not care what is puts out. So it all depends on how much the mother has been used and how carefully stored. If they used the mother and stampers at best quality I would expect that would amount to about 2,500 - 3,000 records. I have no idea on how many were produced for their KOB.
They could use unused stampers to make a new tape copy, but not the best option. Better to have made a copy tape from the original master tape. Perhaps they would have, but Sony would not allow it. All of this depends on the licensing agreement.
Edited because of auto complete.
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mikechadwick
pfm Member
I just watched that section again - Kassem doesn't mention what they are mastering from - maybe it's a needle drop from his original white label (joke!)
Tony L
Administrator
Not the case with the Acoustic Sounds ALS etc, no shortage of bite there. Noticeably more forward and dynamic to my ears than say the Speakers Corner if not quite as sax-centric as my early 70s Japanese pressing. Very comparable to the Tone Poets sonically.
FWIW I don’t feel that about the Way Out West either, that is a great sounding record with real presence to the sax and drums. For soft, smooth and warm I’d cite stuff like the Classic Records Kind Of Blue myself.
Tony, your comments re ALS intrigue me about the latest reissue despite my great misgivings about AP reissues.
Nah, I'll probably pass. I have faith in Chad's sonic preferences.
I already have a nice late 60s/70s Japanese pressing, the 1980s CD version and the 2002 Verve 2CD remaster so I need yet another 'best' version like a hole in the head. I've just listened the the 2002 CD and it's pretty remarkable sounding. Very dynamic with a lot of impact. Unusually it has been remastered by van Gelder himself from the UK tape copy (allegedly the same source as the AP reissue) and it also contains a good live version from Antibes. I certainly don't feel I am missing out on anything. I'd rather spend my money on music I don't already have.
Nah, I'll probably pass. I have faith in Chad's sonic preferences.
I already have a nice late 60s/70s Japanese pressing, the 1980s CD version and the 2002 Verve 2CD remaster so I need yet another 'best' version like a hole in the head. I've just listened the the 2002 CD and it's pretty remarkable sounding. Very dynamic with a lot of impact. Unusually it has been remastered by van Gelder himself from the UK tape copy (allegedly the same source as the AP reissue) and it also contains a good live version from Antibes. I certainly don't feel I am missing out on anything. I'd rather spend my money on music I don't already have.
Tony L
Administrator
The 2xCD Deluxe Edition? It is good, but it is compressed more than I’d like. The reson it is good reading between the lines is this was the point the safety master or a 2nd generation master (can’t remember which) had been discovered so it started with a better generation of source material than most other recent issues (UMG fire). To my ears the Acoustic Sounds uses this analogue master, but is better mastered with less compression.
I would love to compare it to a proper RVG-stamped 1st press as I’m still not sure where it lies. All I’ve experience of is my late-60s/early-70s Japanese copy which is superb and has amazing up-front presence and bite on the sax, the Speakers Corner, which is warm and ‘audiophile laid-back’ and a long time ago the ‘Mastered By Capitol’ 1990s 180g reissue, which is decidedly lacklustre. On CD I have the Complete Impulse Quartet metal box and the Deluxe Edition of ALS.
To sum up if my Japanese copy was mint I’d go no further, but sadly Psalm has been over-played or mistracked by a previous owner and it distorts. I do like this master and it is the closest sonically to a RVG-stamped Canadian Spartan 1st press of Ballads I have which has astonishing presence on the sax. Of the copies I have available the Acoustic Sounds lies either joint 1st or just slightly behind the Japanese press. It is clearly better in some ways, but I am of the mindset that RVG very deliberately pushed Coltrane right forwards on vinyl mastering and therefore it is artistic intent. This is not background music, it needs to have real bite and power.
As another example I have compared the Acoustic Sounds Getz Gilberto to the Speakers Corner, and again the AS has far more mid and top-end presence making the SC sound rather soft and warm. I see the Acoustic Sounds Impulse and Verve as directly comparable to the Tone Poets based on the three I have (the other being the Armstrong). I intend to buy Trio 64 and at least one of the Nina Simones if I can find them at a reasonable price. I definitely like them.
All this needs to be read in the context of my system which is huge Lockwood Tannoys and lacks nothing in bass weight. A lot of audiophile pressings sound overcooked in the bass here, I have the system more setup for original pressings, so those old RVG stamped Impulse, Blue Note etc sound stunningly good.
Your comment about ’artistic intent’ is an important one. Often a new remastering can lead to a different presentation of the music, sometimes better in some aspects but worse in others. It can boil down to a matter of personal sonic preferences and the debate can be never ending like the discussion on whether analog is better than digital, or whether stereo is superior to mono, etc.
For me, whether musical intent or meaning has been altered in remastering is a more important & interesting discussion. As I understand, the Acoustic Sound ALS showcases the individual members of the quartet more equally & prominently instead of focusing on Coltrane. As wonderful as the quartet was, I would question whether the remastering has indeed changed Coltrane’s or Thiele’s vision of the music.
Original Blue Notes have a particular presentation & sound, & when you change that, is it really still a Blue Note album? I like the Tone Poets, but again, have Gray & Harley altered the original intent of the musicians, Lion & van Gelder?
For me, whether musical intent or meaning has been altered in remastering is a more important & interesting discussion. As I understand, the Acoustic Sound ALS showcases the individual members of the quartet more equally & prominently instead of focusing on Coltrane. As wonderful as the quartet was, I would question whether the remastering has indeed changed Coltrane’s or Thiele’s vision of the music.
Original Blue Notes have a particular presentation & sound, & when you change that, is it really still a Blue Note album? I like the Tone Poets, but again, have Gray & Harley altered the original intent of the musicians, Lion & van Gelder?
mikechadwick
pfm Member
Rest of the year release schedule:
Saxondale
pfm Member
Amazing lineup of titles. Can’t wait!