advertisement


Vampire Squid boss defends eating their own young

It happens in all the big accountancy and Law firms here as well, my daughters fiancée worked for one of the big four accountancy firms and was easily working 80 plus hours a week sometimes a 100. They didn’t seem to care that most of the good ones buggered off after qualifying.
 
Obviously, "going the extra mile", in the way their talking about it, benefits the employer because if you con your employees into working twice the number of hours they're contracted for, you only have have hire and pay half the number of employees.

I'm a software engineer, and every employment contract I've had (except the very first as a "graduate engineer") has had working hours of 35/40 hours per week. But they all included a phrase along the lines of: "... but, as a professional grade employee, you are expected to work sufficient hours to complete your tasks, as required, without overtime".

I think that's intended as a "in extremis, you'll be expected to dig us/yourself out of a hole, when required". In practice, it usually seems to be interpreted as "management has carte blanche to pile as much work as they want on you, and if it's more than 40 hours worth of work, you work more than 40 hours".

It also completely ignores the reality that, at some point, serious overwork results in excessive tiredness and results in poor concentration and poor decision making - and that's probably not great for the bank, it's customers, or the economy as a whole.
 
It's the norm in the American high status corporations. I've bumped into a few McKinsey types in factories, the expectation is that you will be on site all day until 6 or 7, then back to the hotel, meal there or nearby, then another 2 or 3 hours typing up reports. If you don't deliver, then you won't stay.
 
Excuse my ignorance but what are they actually doing during their 90 hours per week? Manipulating spreadsheets? Analysing data (whatever that means)? Meetings? I can understand it with jobs that actually produce something or medicine.
 
It's not really work, is it? I mean it's not like they're stuck in a noisy factory, or down a coal mine. Wander round a company, make a few notes, type them up on your laptop, job done. It wouldn't have suited me, because I'm virtually innumerate, but the pay's not bad, and there's lots of free travel.
 
It also completely ignores the reality that, at some point, serious overwork results in excessive tiredness and results in poor concentration and poor decision making - and that's probably not great for the bank, it's customers, or the economy as a whole.

That's nothing that a line of coke won't fix.
 
Excuse my ignorance but what are they actually doing during their 90 hours per week? Manipulating spreadsheets? Analysing data (whatever that means)? Meetings? I can understand it with jobs that actually produce something or medicine.
They examine existing business procedures and try to make them more efficient. This is applicable to companies like the ones where I work that actually manufacture things. They pay for themselves in reduced waste, reduced downtime, lines running more of the time so that people working at the lines are actually producing stuff and not standing waiting.

obviously this is consulting businesses, not banking. What do banks do? Well, you're not doing much without money, are you?
 
I have zero sympathy. World's smallest violin etc.. it should come as no surprise that sucking Satan's cock comes with shit T's and C's. If you can't stand the heat get out of hell and go use your enormous brain for good.

That said, I've known people that make a lot of money in banking, accountancy and law firms and you don't get that wealthy without working like a bastard.
 
They examine existing business procedures and try to make them more efficient. This is applicable to companies like the ones where I work that actually manufacture things. They pay for themselves in reduced waste, reduced downtime, lines running more of the time so that people working at the lines are actually producing stuff and not standing waiting.

That's management consultancy, more the preseve of KPMG et al and not really GS's core business.

Goldman Sachs are bankers - they use very hard maths to leverage investment instruments to the best benefit of their clients. I know a couple of nuclear scientists who drifted to the dark side and are paid an eye watering amount of money by them to devise automated trading algorithms. Analysts use slightly less hard maths to profile investment opportunities for clients.
 
They examine existing business procedures and try to make them more efficient. This is applicable to companies like the ones where I work that actually manufacture things. They pay for themselves in reduced waste, reduced downtime, lines running more of the time so that people working at the lines are actually producing stuff and not standing waiting.

obviously this is consulting businesses, not banking. What do banks do? Well, you're not doing much without money, are you?

But this is an investment bank not a "normal" bank and the type of thing you describe is quite often done by management consultants. Goldman's don't seem to fit in very well with that as far as I can see. Outfits like KPMG do have consultancy functions and people like Ernst and Young are brought in to manage failing companies etc. But Goldman's?
 
Of course junior staff in a lot of disciplines are heavily put upon - they are young. I know I used to put in some epic working hours in my 20s. Right now my 22 yr old daughter is training to be an accountant on top of doing a normal job too - so she knows about hard work right now. Living and working in small room in central London, which in lockdown is less exciting than it should be.

Not just junior. Try being a middle to senior manager in the NHS (like my wife). Emails sometimes in the hundreds every day. Work 8am until about 7pm every day, although the 'working hours' are supposedly 37 a week I think) and then do an unpaid on-call rota every few weeks (either 9am Mon - 5pm Friday, or 5pm Fri - 9am Monday). Weekend On-call frequently means at least 2 conference calls on top of the normal 'help' calls that come in, both Sat and Sun. You are not allowed to have a drink during that time either - after all you might be called to go in (although that has never actually happened for her). Oh - and annual leave - she does get way more (35) than I do (25), but no opportunity to take it all - so every year at least a few days are 'lost' beyond the 5 day carry-forward limit.

A working day is calls/meetings from 8am to near 6pm then you can look at the emails. Lunch - soup snatched in a 15 minute gap. Sometimes you may have a full presentation to prepare or a business case to put together, frequently a formal tender/bid - guess when they get done? Often Sunday night, of course.

Then I look at friends who have senior professional lawyer type jobs - they are in their mid 50s and still work very long hours. No wonder one has decreed his retirement later this year and he can then get a life...kids have just grown up and gone.
 
That's management consultancy, more the preseve of KPMG et al and not really GS's core business.

Goldman Sachs are bankers - they use very hard maths to leverage investment instruments to the best benefit of their clients. I know a couple of nuclear scientists who drifted to the dark side and are paid an eye watering amount of money by them to devise automated trading algorithms. Analysts use slightly less hard maths to profile investment opportunities for clients.
Yes, I realised I was still talking about my contact with McKinsey which has a similar model for employee time, and amended it for banking, which presumably was the subject of the "what do they do?" question.
 
But this is an investment bank not a "normal" bank and the type of thing you describe is quite often done by management consultants. Goldman's don't seem to fit in very well with that as far as I can see. Outfits like KPMG do have consultancy functions and people like Ernst and Young are brought in to manage failing companies etc. But Goldman's?

I guess their M&A business is something a bit closer to that.

I understand in firms like Goldmans graduates are expected to either move up or be let go. You work all hours for the first few years because the competition is tough but the rewards are very high indeed as you work your way up.
 
I don't think "I had to do it, why shouldn't they?" is any more a valid argument in this case than it was was for junior doctors.

Also, "they know what they're getting into, and get the big salaries, so no sympathy" is fine, until the lack of sleep (or the too much of the devil's talcum) leads to poor decision making, and half your pension fund disappears - still "no sympathy" for those affected?

(And the problem is far from restricted to the investment banking sector)
 
Of course junior staff in a lot of disciplines are heavily put upon - they are young. I know I used to put in some epic working hours in my 20s. Right now my 22 yr old daughter is training to be an accountant on top of doing a normal job too - so she knows about hard work right now. Living and working in small room in central London, which in lockdown is less exciting than it should be.

Not just junior. Try being a middle to senior manager in the NHS (like my wife). Emails sometimes in the hundreds every day. Work 8am until about 7pm every day, although the 'working hours' are supposedly 37 a week I think) and then do an unpaid on-call rota every few weeks (either 9am Mon - 5pm Friday, or 5pm Fri - 9am Monday). Weekend On-call frequently means at least 2 conference calls on top of the normal 'help' calls that come in, both Sat and Sun. You are not allowed to have a drink during that time either - after all you might be called to go in (although that has never actually happened for her). Oh - and annual leave - she does get way more (35) than I do (25), but no opportunity to take it all - so every year at least a few days are 'lost' beyond the 5 day carry-forward limit.

A working day is calls/meetings from 8am to near 6pm then you can look at the emails. Lunch - soup snatched in a 15 minute gap. Sometimes you may have a full presentation to prepare or a business case to put together, frequently a formal tender/bid - guess when they get done? Often Sunday night, of course.

Then I look at friends who have senior professional lawyer type jobs - they are in their mid 50s and still work very long hours. No wonder one has decreed his retirement later this year and he can then get a life...kids have just grown up and gone.

Yep I've been through this myself working long hours away from home although I'm doing very much less of it now I'm approaching 60. I don't miss it. The stress of it is not something I would go back to.

I visited Japan in the 90s on a technical exchange and observed their graduates working under the same sort of conditions. They had to live within on-site company accommodation and their hours were "work as needed". So 80-90 hours was typical. They weren't allowed to drive either strangely. Senior people however worked the fewest hours. One manager strolled in at 0930 and left at 3pm just after issuing his orders for the day. It may have changed in Japan.

Goldmans are American and their work culture is something that they have exported to the UK. I expect their graduates are at the top end of graduate pay scales. Other nationalities I know in at least one business work in much the same way but they are not compensated to the same degree as Goldmans. 9 til 9 six days a week with unpaid overtime on top. The way of the world now unfortunately.
 
I visited Japan in the 90s on a technical exchange and observed their graduates working under the same sort of conditions. They had to live within on-site company accommodation and their hours were "work as needed". So 80-90 hours was typical. They weren't allowed to drive either strangely. Senior people however worked the fewest hours. One manager strolled in at 0930 and left at 3pm just after issuing his orders for the day. It may have changed in Japan.

I worked in Tokyo for a couple of years a decade ago. There's a massive culture of presenteeism - employees are often rewarded for the hours they work not how much they produce so some people pretty much live in the office despite having not much to do. And traditionally no one leaves until the boss leaves. That kind of thing. I think you're right though it is changing slowly.
 
We only have to go back a short time in history and children were working full time in coal mines, agriculture, cotton mills and God knows what else. And that was eventually made illegal but not without a great fight. Any equivalence? No.
 


advertisement


Back
Top