Valve learning question

[Tarzan]

Afternoon all, as a valve newbie, l have the chance to procure some ( " have not been used for a while" Edicron ECC83 printed on them is 'HOJGO', could l use them as a phase splitter in my hybrid amp or should l snog/marry/avoid?

Thanks.

 

[Tony L]

I’d not mix/match brands left to right in an amp. Different valves sound different, so whilst it is fine to mix and match two channel valves (which 83s are being dual triodes), if your amp uses a dedicated valve as the hase splitter for each channel buy a matched pair. It will obviously “work” and do no damage mixing brands, but chances are the sound, stereo soundstage etc will be a bit odd/less than what it should be.

 

[Arkless Electronics]

Whilst I disagree that it's particularly important what brand they are on sound quality grounds I would generally avoid Edicron on reliability grounds. They are one of a few companies that obtain valves from whatever sources are available to them at the time and remark them with their own brand name. As such I'm sure that sometimes they are great, but I've had too many problems with Edicron and Pinnacle in the past to trust them, especially power valves... I've had batches of EL84's and GZ34's where pretty much every valve failed spectacularly within 3 minutes!

 

[Darth Vader]

At first blush I'd skip these valves as there is a dearth of information in the spec sheet and the gain is stated at 10% higher. The RS 'PRO' version has full specs and is similar to the Philips spec sheet and cost just six quid vs fifteen for the Russkie. A phase splitter is not as critical as the earlier pre-amp valves and the RS are so cheap buy a handful and have a play.

Unless you are one of those flush peeps who'd pay £500 for a very old NOS.............

Cheers,

DV

 

[Vinny]

Valve novice speaking here, but if you are not familiar with what brands are just that - brands/badges - rather than manufacturers, do some surfing. There are, in fact, multitudes of brands that bought or buy anything at a price and badge it. More recently, umpteen old names have been acquired by one or two factories so that current production from one factory can be badged with any of numerous names from the past - Tung-Sol, Mullard, Electo Harmonix, are all being made now, along with other names from the past, all in one factory.

Very occasionally, a manufacturer's mark can be found on badged valves, and you can go from there. Valves sold new in the 70's (and before in some cases) are also VERY commonly not what they are badged, but can actually be "better", as brands stopped in-house manufacture and sourced and badged valves from the remaining manufacturers. I believe that Japanese manufacturers were amongst the last to stop outside the Eastern Block, so supplied some of the large US/European brands, and I rather like the couple that I have heard...……………………..

Single NOS Mullard ECC83s will not cost you more than £35, if that is what might float your boat - I have 4 that all cost under £30 and three sound "matched". How many hours have they really got on them? I don't know, but they were sold as unused NOS and they play at similar gain/volume etc. as brand new Sovteks etc.

 

[Arkless Electronics]

Afternoon all, as a valve newbie, l have the chance to procure some ( " have not been used for a while" Edicron ECC83 printed on them is 'HOJGO', could l use them as a phase splitter in my hybrid amp or should l snog/marry/avoid?

Thanks.

Had a look for some details on this amp (presuming you're talking about the Vincent SV237) and there is no phase splitter.... It appears to be the more common variety of hybrid in which a valve pre amp drives a SS power amp. The ECC83 seems to be the first stage of the pre amp, followed by 6n1p's. There's an interview with the designer on the interweb thingy...
I don't personally regard such a thing as a true hybrid as it does not use valves and SS as part of the same circuitry... I can see that my strict technical determination of what constitutes a hybrid will not be shared by those that say "hey, there are valves and SS in the amp so it's hybrid"

 

[Vinny]

Sound very like what a lot of people run, including me - a valve pre into a SS power - which no-one would call hybrid.

There is also a choice of brand new ECC83s between £10-£15 inc postage...………………..those Edicron's better be some kind of major bargain.

 

[Tarzan]

Thanks for the replies chaps, will pass on the Edicrons.

 

[TimF]

I had some Edicron ECC83’s that came with my Croft Micro 25, they were rebadged JJ’s. Sounded just fine and still going after two years or so.

 

[Mullardman]

I ran my Papworth M100s with Edicron EL34's for about 8 years. One valve out of 8 failed. I replaced them all with Svetlana. One Svetlana valve out of 8 failed in the following 10 years.

My EAR 834 phono stage was supplied by EAR fitted with Edicrons, around 1997. They worked fine for about 8 years until I decided to try some N.O.S. alleged 'military spec' equivalents. I didn't hear much difference. Neither the originals nor the replacements have had any failures. All still work..

 

[Arkless Electronics]

They obtain from wherever they can find them.... some can even be Mullard, Brimar etc! However... as I said with EL84's and GZ34's from the batches I had (probably mid 80's made) they lasted minutes only.... ECC83 etc are small signal valves and not likely to fail spectacularly.

 

[Tarzan]

I had some Edicron ECC83’s that came with my Croft Micro 25, they were rebadged JJ’s. Sounded just fine and still going after two years or so.

Did you have anything to compare them with?

 

[Vinny]

A lot will depend on what date any of the badged valves were made.
Edicron have been going a long while, although I am unsure exactly how long - no doubt Google will tell you. If they have badged valves in the last 40 years, the great bulk are likely to have been from the small number of factories still in operation and as valves become more recent, the number of potential manufacturers has dwindled (to 5? 6? or so at the moment, but with new supposedly to open). Windfall finds of sufficient numbers of old, old stock apart.

As for JJs - I have some, but with the power amp dead at the moment, I can't compare them to anything.....maybe this weekend???? I'll update my thread about ECC83s when I do get round to comparing more manufacturers' valves.

Is the ECC83 reckoned to be the one to change in a Vincent to tweak sound?

 

[Tarzan]

A lot will depend on what date any of the badged valves were made.
Edicron have been going a long while, although I am unsure exactly how long - no doubt Google will tell you. If they have badged valves in the last 40 years, the great bulk are likely to have been from the small number of factories still in operation and as valves become more recent, the number of potential manufacturers has dwindled (to 5? 6? or so at the moment, but with new supposedly to open). Windfall finds of sufficient numbers of old, old stock apart.

As for JJs - I have some, but with the power amp dead at the moment, I can't compare them to anything.....maybe this weekend???? I'll update my thread about ECC83s when I do get round to comparing more manufacturers' valves.

Is the ECC83 reckoned to be the one to change in a Vincent to tweak sound?

Hi Vinny, please continue your ECC83 research- we never stop learning in this game, to your other point, yes, when l changed the stock Chinese ECC83 to the Harma STR, there was definitely an uplift in sound, these were £15ish a pop, however The Gold Lion is supposed to be the next level up then the uber expensive NOS..... so l suppose you pick your poison.

 

[Vinny]

What do you mean by an uplift?

There are STACKS of NOS and/or tested ECC83s at under £15 per, even more so as singles, just not Mullard (that is basically anything with the Mullard badge, irrespective of age and manufacturing source, apart from used and low gain, and brand new). Be careful about what you are really buying though in terms of brand/manufacturer.

FWIW, Mullard ECC83s (based entirely on as many as 4 from the early 1960's!!), are not really to my taste - too casual in presentation - great for rocking me to sleep but not for making me rock - at some level, somehow I want to be grabbed by what is playing.

 

[Arkless Electronics]

It's odd that other makes of NOS valves don't seem to fetch quite as much money generally....

 

[Vinny]

The lunacies of fashion...............................

My curiosity has meant that I have kept an eye on FleaBay for several weeks and prices are only partially predictable. It is obvious that sometimes punters realise what some things REALLY are, and sometimes not. The commonest thing is people missing badged valves that were actually manufactured in Blackburn (no longer of interest to me, other than as an itch to bag a bargain ).

Used but tested valves also seldom reach any great price, and as Tony pointed out a while back, if tested and they do not work as they ought, you will get your money back one way or another.

 

[TimF]

Did you have anything to compare them with?

Tarzan, early on after I bought my Crofts-a Micro 25 and Series 7, I tried(borrowed) several varieties of tubes, Tungsram, Mazda, Telefunken etc., but a handful of NOS stuff. As I went along, I also tried a few various new manufactured tubes, some from the same factories, just rebranded, Sovtek, Electro Harmonix, Tungsol. Shock, horror! To my ears, none of them were anything of the night and day or OMG types of things that I always hear/read about. In fact dare I say, most just sounded the same or so very similar that on any given day I couldn't be arsed to hear a difference in them.

Call me leather ears or whatever. In the end, money saved and I just roll along with what I have, and right now in my Micro 25, it is the Edicron/JJ's, and in my Series 7 amp I have a new manufactured Tungsol. Good enough for me. I am probably not the guy to go to when it comes to all of this these days, as I would rather just enjoy listening to my music versus playing around with shit! As long as it is reliable and sounds good, I am good to go. FWIW

 

[Vinny]

There are only two major nits that I would pick with that, one is this nonsense preoccupation with NOS = £££££££. This just simply is not so. Lots and lots and lots of NOS for the same price as many and cheaper than some brand new. The cheapest NOS ECC83 that I have bought has been £5 and the most expensive around £20, both including postage, and similarly for ECC82s.
The second is this claim that people claim that differences are night and day - where, who? The differences that I hear are very obvious, but also very subtle, and I would be the first to admit that outside of back to back comparisons, I would struggle - play the same track on one valve, swap it out and play again - any difference(s) is/are obvious. The best way that I could describe the differences would be to compare them to how you hear a live concert from different seats within a concert hall - some seats are far "better" than others and no two are identical.

I have to say that I was a total sceptic, until I bought a few different valves, but when someone who has not the feintest idea what is being used to produce music, hears what I hear, I am convinced.

All based on a simple version of a Croft Micro - two ECC83s and one ECC82 - into Avondale mono-blocks. I would also be the first to admit that what any valve "sounds like" in any single amp' could well be light years different to what it "sounds like" in any other - I have not tried.

 

[Tarzan]

What do you mean by an uplift?

There are STACKS of NOS and/or tested ECC83s at under £15 per, even more so as singles, just not Mullard (that is basically anything with the Mullard badge, irrespective of age and manufacturing source, apart from used and low gain, and brand new). Be careful about what you are really buying though in terms of brand/manufacturer.

FWIW, Mullard ECC83s (based entirely on as many as 4 from the early 1960's!!), are not really to my taste - too casual in presentation - great for rocking me to sleep but not for making me rock - at some level, somehow I want to be grabbed by what is playing.

Improvement in sound.....