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Valve amp recommendations, with a couple of conditions...

Dave H.

Dave H.

Revolutionary relativist
I'm looking for some pointers. I've got (modern/black box) Naim gear. Although I've always thought each step up was a good idea sonically, there's always been something niggling that I felt wasn't quite doing it for me. I thought perhaps I was a valve man, and just didn't know it yet.

So when I recently had a significant life event, by way of celebratory exuberance I got hold of a Primaluna Dialogue Premium HP Integrated (bit of a mouthful). I thought it sounded better than the Naim gear - subjective, of course - and was optimistic about selling the Naim stuff and actually making a profit out of the swap.

But it doesn't have a balance control. I didn't even think to check it had, but I should have - I need a balance control, can't do without one. So unfortunately it's going to have to go back, and I'm back to the Naim stuff.

But I liked the sound. I actually liked it most in triode mode, rather than ultralinear, if that's anything to go by. That's despite the fact that I have Harbeth 30.1s, which some might say need more power (that's why I went for the HP version of the amp), and listen to stuff including electronic music, metal etc as well as classical and what have you. And, as incidental as it may seem, I liked the looks with the exposed valves etc.

So I'm curious about what might be out there to have a listen to, provided it meets certain criteria:
  • has a balance control
  • has remote control
  • can work ok with Harbeth 30.1s
  • looks more interesting than a black box
  • desirable but not essential - has a phono stage, even if it's not the best (I'm mostly digital, but would like to play the odd record as a legacy kinda thing at least).
I've noticed the Jadis Orchestra Reference. That'd be the top end of the price bracket. But I'm not sure about power, though the Primaluna in triode mode is about the same and seemed ok. And there are some who doubt Jadis reliability online. Also no phono stage, albeit that's not a deal breaker.

I've also noticed the Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum 3. Ticks the boxes, but I've seen it described as sounding un-valvey, whatever that means. Though I'm guessing the triode switch might mitigate that.

Anyone got comparative experience with these, and are there others worth looking at?

An alternative route might be to get a valve DAC, but that'd be another thread (and probably overlap with the recent 'warm DAC' thread), so for now I'm just thinking of integrated amps.
 
I would look at Icon Audio as they are often compared as similar to Prima Luna. They do very good valve phono stages as well but only stand alone.

I have heard rumours about Jadis reliability too but never tried one.

Audionote are always worth a listen if you have a spare kidney as are Audio Research.

It depends what music you listen to. I am more rock/blues
/prog orientated and despite living in awe of a full VTL valve pre/power they didn't really have the drive.

I have kept the VTL pre with all valve phono and have a big SS power amp which is a happy compromise. It certainly has enough grunt to arc weld which I need with big KEF's.
 
Dave***t said:
I'm looking for some pointers. I've got (modern/black box) Naim gear. Although I've always thought each step up was a good idea sonically, there's always been something niggling that I felt wasn't quite doing it for me. I thought perhaps I was a valve man, and just didn't know it yet.

So when I recently had a significant life event, by way of celebratory exuberance I got hold of a Primaluna Dialogue Premium HP Integrated (bit of a mouthful). I thought it sounded better than the Naim gear - subjective, of course - and was optimistic about selling the Naim stuff and actually making a profit out of the swap.

But it doesn't have a balance control. I didn't even think to check it had, but I should have - I need a balance control, can't do without one. So unfortunately it's going to have to go back, and I'm back to the Naim stuff.

But I liked the sound. I actually liked it most in triode mode, rather than ultralinear, if that's anything to go by. That's despite the fact that I have Harbeth 30.1s, which some might say need more power (that's why I went for the HP version of the amp), and listen to stuff including electronic music, metal etc as well as classical and what have you. And, as incidental as it may seem, I liked the looks with the exposed valves etc.

So I'm curious about what might be out there to have a listen to, provided it meets certain criteria:
  • has a balance control
  • has remote control
  • can work ok with Harbeth 30.1s
  • looks more interesting than a black box
  • desirable but not essential - has a phono stage, even if it's not the best (I'm mostly digital, but would like to play the odd record as a legacy kinda thing at least).
I've noticed the Jadis Orchestra Reference. That'd be the top end of the price bracket. But I'm not sure about power, though the Primaluna in triode mode is about the same and seemed ok. And there are some who doubt Jadis reliability online. Also no phono stage, albeit that's not a deal breaker.

I've also noticed the Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum 3. Ticks the boxes, but I've seen it described as sounding un-valvey, whatever that means. Though I'm guessing the triode switch might mitigate that.

Anyone got comparative experience with these, and are there others worth looking at?

An alternative route might be to get a valve DAC, but that'd be another thread (and probably overlap with the recent 'warm DAC' thread), so for now I'm just thinking of integrated amps.
Click to expand...
Have a look at Pathos online. Their designs are really cool and sound quality up there with the best. I gave up pre and multiple power amps from Linn. It was cheaper than Linn also. 5 years on my amp has not put a foot wrong.. They come in all sorts of power supply and designs.
 
Perhaps Luxman? They make a couple of valve intergrated amps with onboard phono stages and balance and tone controls, remote control and are certainly not black boxes, very pretty designs IMO
 
I run a Jadis Orchestra (and a DA30) into Harbeth M30s and HLP3-ESRs . I like the Orchestra very much and reliability has never been an issue. I believe the reliability rumours emerged shortly after the company started up, and I'm not aware of it being an issue more recently.

The only thing I would say about the Orchestra is that it is manual/fixed bias which needs adjusting each time you change output tubes. It's not a job for the faint-hearted as you have to partially dismantle the amp, or get a technician to do it for you. Jadis amps higher up the food chain are all autobias.
 
Interested in suggestions here, myself actually I’m running a Mytek Class D compact system right now, but a higher output valve power amp for an alternative presentation will be on the cards when the new house is built.
 
It's been said many times before...……………

A valve pre on SS powers will cost rather little in terms of ££ and hassle short and long term, and may well just fit the bill. Buy used and try, and it'll cost you not much, if anything, if it doesn't suit.
 
If the balance is just adjust and leave on one position you could try an in line attenuator on one channel.
Or even fitting a balance pot to the side of the chassis
If you really like the sound if this particular amp.
 
Thanks for the replies, folks. Some stuff to look into. A few particular responses -

@Bairnstorm I'm looking at the Icon Audio models, but I don't think I can see balance controls on any of them, am I missing them?

@I.D.C. Same thing - there are a couple of Pathos models in range, potentially (Logos and TT), but I can't see balance controls on them?

@Darren L I think the only Luxman model I've seen that's the kind of thing I have in mind is the SQ-N150, is that what you were thinking of? Unfortunately I think at 10W/6Ω it would be underpowered.

@Vinny Do you mean to go with my existing Naim power amp? I think I'd rather move to an integrated if poss. Hybrid integrated could be worth a look though.

@Euan McIntosh could be interesting. I gather they're typically more at the big/laid back sounding end of things. But there's a bewildering array of models! I'd consider the newish hybrid, the MA252 if it didn't have daft green lights on the valves. I've seen them come up ex-dem. But don't the good ones (autotransformers?) only start when things get more expensive?

@MikeMA Aha, good to know, thanks.

@Metlor Yeah I mentioned it to Jez/Akless and he suggested adding a balance control to the Primaluna, but it's a bit posh to modify. Attenuator - maybe. I had a look and they seem to start at 10db, which I think would be a bit much. Do you know if lower values are available, and whether it'd cause any issues using one on just one channel?

@jobseeker Sort something out as in throw together a device, or as in supply one of their own amps?
 
Rosewind said:
Passive pre with a balance pot? Just a thought.
Click to expand...

Yeah I thought of that, but wasn't sure what kind - I know Khozmo are well regarded here, but the dual mono would be £300+, which seemed a bit much.

Any thoughts on candidate models?
 
Metlor said:
If the balance is just adjust and leave on one position you could try an in line attenuator on one channel.
Or even fitting a balance pot to the side of the chassis
If you really like the sound if this particular amp.
Click to expand...

It would make far more sense to replace the existing volume pot with a dual gang one. It would need a new stacked knob, but could almost certainly be none in a totally non-destructive reversible way.

I have no idea why this isn’t the default state on absolutely all audio kit. It is exactly the same minimal/purist signal path as a standard stereo pot, but gives balance adjustment without the awkwardness of two volume pots (which my preamp has and I find no issue at all to be honest). Balance is an essential function IMO as no room is entirely balanced left to right and so many folk in the audiophile community have asymmetrical hearing loss to some degree. I have no idea why they have been abandoned when there is absolutely zero sonic benefit to be had in doing so if one uses either two or a dual-gang volume control(s).
 
Dave***t said:
Thanks for the replies, folks. Some stuff to look into. A few particular responses -



@Darren L I think the only Luxman model I've seen that's the kind of thing I have in mind is the SQ-N150, is that what you were thinking of? Unfortunately I think at 10W/6Ω it would be underpowered.
Click to expand...

There's both the SQ-N150 and the LX-380, both amps are equipped with the facilities & controls you're after which is more unusual than the usual source selector and volume control. If neither of these amps has enough power for your speakers you could consider one of the Class A solid state amps or move to a valve pre & power combo.
If you wanted to go second hand I would recommend a Copland CSA28, valve/SS hybrid intergrated with a good phono stage , balance control and remote control or if you wanted to go seperate pre and power amp I would also recommend a Copland CTA 301 valve pre, excellent valve phono stage, balance control and remote control on the MK2, this could then be partnered with a valve or SS power amp.
Unfortunately nowadays most valve intergrated or valve pre amps are equipped with only an volume control, source selector and on/off switch. Where as you may find older valve preamps with balance controls or a phono stage it may not be that easy to find a choice that ticks all the boxes.
 
Dave***t said:
@Vinny Do you mean to go with my existing Naim power amp? I think I'd rather move to an integrated if poss. Hybrid integrated could be worth a look though.
Click to expand...

Entirely received wisdom for me, but hybrids generally have rather little "valve character". The more sophisticated/complicated the design, the less the valves contribute in all respects.
 
I suggested a passive pre as a fairly easy way to work around the missing balance pot, simply because you said you liked the sound of the valve amp you had replaced the Naim kit with. There are less expensive options including DIY. The important thing is that you get as close to short wires with a balance pot as possible. I would look at some of your local offerings first then widen your search. China can be cheap but you may only get what you paid for.

Tony's suggestion would be an elegant solution to your problem. Why not ask around to see how much this would set you back?

Integrated amps with balance pots should be easy to source.
 
As to power, I ran a push pull Luxman rated 25wpc into HL5 + speakers and it drove them with ease up to around 90Db...beyond there? Very high power SET amps rarely work well IMO, unless you pay for AudioResearch or etc. If you must have power you need to look at push/pull valve designs, but then you lose a little of that lovely warm distortion ;)
As said ^ the best compromise is a good valve preamp with phono stage into SS power amp, but if it's an integrated you must have, Luxman, Icon Audio, Acoustic Research, Cary, Quad and more all do 'small' integrated push pull amps that should suit well. I have nor checked your control requirements before making that list.
 
I’d second Tony L’s suggestion.

You might end up on a real odyssey of different valve amps if the you don’t like the sound of the replacement.
 
Re the atteuator, finding a suitable value would be a bit of a gamble (pot luck )
You could try 10db, I'm sure you could get one built to a lesser value but what would it be ?
Tony's idea would be the most effective, it's just getting it to look right on the front of the amp.
 
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