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Ukraine V

Discussion in 'off topic' started by DimitryZ, Jun 29, 2022.

  1. TheDecameron

    TheDecameron Unicorns fart glitter.

    For clarity, conscientious objection should be respected but that’s obviously not (as far as I can see) the case in Russia. It is though true that polling demonstrated overwhelming public support for the ‘special operation’ against the Ukrainian people.

    https://carnegieendowment.org/2022/...g-russian-public-opinion-on-ukraine-pub-87803

    Given this is the case I don’t think anyone can assume that everyone trying to flee Russia is a conscientious objector- many will be cheerleaders and supporters of the Z action movie and it’s just that they were happy to cheer the action heroes but god forbid they would have to join the cast. A quick look at their mobile phones would find out which category of objector they were and if the phone is new and they’ve never used the internet before, they’d have a job to do to convince their host country.

    Of course sons of the Nomenklatura won’t be queuing at the border to get out- they’ll have got off a flight in Dubai by now.
     
  2. cobbers

    cobbers pfm Member

    To have a functioning democracy there has to be the right to demonstrate and to use it - i don't see much of that going on here against this sh------er we have in 'government'.
     
  3. Alex S

    Alex S carbon based lifeform

    You are correct, Ian. The Soviet Union collapsed. Russians have a better track record and appetite for what you’re suggesting than most.

    They also know that 20,000,000 died in WW2, 10,000,000 of them troops (compared to UK 350,000), largely under equipped, under prepared and thrown at the front. That’s what’s happening now but the difference is it’s not even to fight an enemy.

    All Russians I know, probably as many as PFM’s commentators put together, are disgusted by this war and see it as a conflict against their own, many having Ukrainian blood ties.

    They are also against Putin. He will fall. Polls are rigged in Russia, so is the media, as if Dec doesn’t know this. But all populations have their share of idiots. The same demographic that voted Brexit here supports Putin there but not for much longer.
     
    martin clark, Cheese, sean99 and 4 others like this.
  4. sideshowbob

    sideshowbob Champagne fascia aficionado

    I think a lot of the history of the Great Patriotic War has been cynically used to shore up a myth of Russian national identity which has helped Putin and his ilk to amass so much power. tbf the same is true of Little Englanders and the Churchill myth, Russians are in no way unique in that. And a lot of the blame for Russian cynicism about democracy is no doubt down to the way Western corporate interests colluded in and encouraged theft and corruption on a vast scale in the immediate post-Soviet period (I have some personal experience of that, having spent time working in Ekaterinburg on a number of World Bank funded IT projects in the very early 90s, all of which were of precisely zero benefit to ordinary people but made a small clique very rich indeed).

    But a revolt from below needs to come. Otherwise post-Putin Russia will be the same old corrupt authoritarianism, just with a change of personnel, diminished military ambitions, and vast reparations to somehow pay.
     
    PsB, sean99 and Alex S like this.
  5. wacko

    wacko pfm Member

    Very hard to know what the real support for Putin's war was within Russia. Even before the Ukraine fight back.
     
  6. Alex S

    Alex S carbon based lifeform

    Urban Russians are well educated, far better than here on average, but there is still a huge population probably easily swayed by (particularly emotive given history) de-nazification rhetoric.
     
    martin clark, sideshowbob and wacko like this.
  7. paulfromcamden

    paulfromcamden Baffled

    We can all use a laugh today and this made me unexpectedly lol

    [​IMG]
     
    andrewd, MikeMA, Nick_G and 2 others like this.
  8. TheDecameron

    TheDecameron Unicorns fart glitter.

    I truly hope he’s putting his much vaunted military prowess to good use, though I’d be unsurprised if he was at the border with Georgia with the Z logo hastily scraped off the car windows.
     
    Nick_G and sideshowbob like this.
  9. sideshowbob

    sideshowbob Champagne fascia aficionado

    andrewd and Somafunk like this.
  10. kensalriser

    kensalriser pfm Member

    People do change their minds when shit gets real. And shit just got real.
     
  11. TheDecameron

    TheDecameron Unicorns fart glitter.

    Presumably Ms.Pamfilova ( great name btw) has had a Damascene conversion since she was “Chair of the Presdiential Committee for Civil Society and Human Rights”? Clearly a woman not to be trifled with:

    [​IMG]

    Sarah Palin on steroids.
     
  12. cobbers

    cobbers pfm Member

    Far from the first - also enlistment officers shot.
     
  13. MUTTY1

    MUTTY1 Waste of bandwidth

    imagine this in America which is not short of domestic weapons!
    There are many reasons America is difficult to invade. Even if you get there, the most mild-mannered household will probably have a little gun ‘just in case’. They carry guns like I (used) to tote a condom.
    just to add, I’m not feeling light-hearted about this situation. Black humour is for survival as much as amusement.
     
    Spraggons Den likes this.
  14. MUTTY1

    MUTTY1 Waste of bandwidth

    That’s screensaver material! I reckon you’d find that image on Max Mosley’s phone( no rest for the wicked, even when dead;))
     
  15. MUTTY1

    MUTTY1 Waste of bandwidth

    Remember a ytube video way back claiming the various states of the federation could rebel. Many have grievances but more importantly have structures of government to make a break from Moscow realistic. The pull of being resource-rich but relatively powerless over decades could become overwhelming. You just can’t tell because any cooperation between federal states would have to be below the radar.
     
  16. sean99

    sean99 pfm Member

  17. DimitryZ

    DimitryZ pfm Member

    A bad look at a really bad time.
     
    ErikL and sideshowbob like this.
  18. Plink

    Plink pfm Member

    Now that Putin announced mobilisation, I would have expected him to promptly enlist for dutiful service. He could then take an active role in thwarting the efforts of the “mr. president artist”.

    In all seriousness, I hope he came to his senses and maybe he can come back to post. Would like to explore further just how much his mind was obviously blown by Zelensky being similarly talented in the arts: comedy and television.
     
    TheDecameron likes this.
  19. TheDecameron

    TheDecameron Unicorns fart glitter.

    I think he was a decent guy! He illustrates a perceptual issue with how most of us here see Russia, ie. “surely the people will rise up against Putin”. We underestimate his domestic support at our peril.
     
    wacko likes this.
  20. paulfromcamden

    paulfromcamden Baffled

    Me too. I don't see him in the members list so I'm guessing he left PFM.
     

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