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Ukraine V

Discussion in 'off topic' started by DimitryZ, Jun 29, 2022.

  1. gints

    gints pfm Member

    There is growing retoric in Russia about restoring Soviet Union, expanding Russia lands and "borders which never end". And that is coming also from high ranked goverment persons. We now are way, way past from those stupid discusions that West coused it, USA coused it, NATO caused it and rest of similar bla, bla, bla.
     
  2. droodzilla

    droodzilla pfm Member

    I might be wrong but I don't think Corbyn has at any point argued that we should not support Ukraine with weapons. His point is that there should be greater emphasis on negotiation. It is indeed a reasonable position, though I don't think Corbyn articulates it especially well - as usual, he tends to speak in abstractions, rather than offering concrete proposals.

    As for the StW statement, it was written before Russia invaded so it inevitably reads badly in parts now (too "both-sidesy", I would say). That said, the main focus of the statement is the UK government's response to the growing tensions at the time and I think those criticisms - of bellicose posturing, essentially - were valid and remain valid to this day. There's no doubt that Boris Johnson used the crisis to burnish his own leadership credentials for a UK audience. I kinda feel sorry for Zelensky believing a charlatan like Johnson could ever be a solid ally.

    Moreover, I'm not going to join in the pile-on against StW when they have been right about many conflicts in the 21st century, including Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya. Can anyone point at the smouldering ruins in those parts of the world and honestly believe that dropping thousands of tonnes of munitions on them has made things better - or that the world is a better and safer place?

    I fundamentally disagree with your final philosophical point but I'm a Kantian at heart so intent is always going to feature prominently in my ethical deliberations.
     
    Klassik likes this.
  3. dweezil

    dweezil pfm Member

    It's an overworn technique politicians use to sound reasonable without saying anything useful. In this instance there were endless visits to Russia during the build up which achieved nothing.

    Looking back i find it hard to see what more could have been done; the politicians all took the opportunity to get in on the debate while Putin smiled and carried on with his plan.
     
  4. klfrs

    klfrs chill out

    A lot of privilege in his position.
     
    Kirk likes this.
  5. droodzilla

    droodzilla pfm Member

    "Endless" might be an exagerration but yes, some world leaders and politicians tried. And the point is, they should keep trying. I assume that they are but it doesn't do any harm to say this explicitly.
     
    dweezil likes this.
  6. DimitryZ

    DimitryZ pfm Member

    I think it's important to be precise in your statements, especially in matters of life and death.

    Corbyn's position is widely interpreted as exactly that - stop arming Ukraine.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/ukraine-russia-jeremy-corbyn-russia-weapons-b2137989.html

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/02/jeremy-corbyn-urges-west-to-stop-arming-ukraine

    Has there been any parliamentary votes on sending arms? And if Corbyn supports sending weapons, he has had ample opportunity to clarify.

    And if even the supporters of the position can't agree on what the position is, it means it's muddled and confused.
     
    PsB likes this.
  7. ks.234

    ks.234 pfm Member

    If there is a lesson the be learned here it is that ‘what is widely reported’ ain’t necessarily so. Especially where there is a vested interest in misreporting and interpretation of what is reported doesn’t go behind the short sentence headlines
     
  8. gustavm

    gustavm pfm Member

    I think that is an entirely fair point. At best Corbyn's message is confused. If he hasn't any useful proposals or is unwilling to clarify exactly what he does mean, then he should have the grace to stay out of the discussion. He is not alone in wanting a peaceful solution (probably 99.9% of mankind does too) but he does seem to feel the need to advertise his "peace" credentials, but with no substantive suggestions (at least, that are likely to have any impact on the current situation).
     
  9. DimitryZ

    DimitryZ pfm Member

    Honestly, words are supposed to have meaning.

    This is what RT is reporting - incidentally, the same as every other newspaper in the world:

    https://www.rt.com/news/560163-corbyn-ukraine-west-weapons/amp/

    And direct quote:
    “pouring arms in isn’t going to bring about a solution, it’s only going to prolong and exaggerate this war,” adding that “we might be in for years and years”

    I don't think there is an "alternative fact" here to be found. We have heard identical sentiment here in this thread, including from you, so a very mainstream leftist view.

    And at the same time neither Corbyn nor yourself would go on the record with an actual public position on the weapons issue. I still don't know where you or drood actually are on this - other than general desire for end of war there is nothing concrete from your "camp" not even a personal conviction.

    If there is a philosophy behind your position, it appears to be impractical, since it is preventing you from formulating the most basic position in a question of life and death.
     
    MUTTY1, Spraggons Den, Hook and 2 others like this.
  10. russel

    russel ./_dazed_and_confused

    I think muddled and confused is Corbyns default state on almost any subject, that is why he was so unpopular with many people and such an easy target for the right wing press.
     
    Spraggons Den likes this.
  11. DimitryZ

    DimitryZ pfm Member

    I regularly view multiple Russian language YouTube channels on the subject of Ukranian war. Ukraine is a bilingual country (Russian/Ukrainian), so some of these are made by Ukranians for Ukranians - Ukrainian propaganda, if you will. This one is a good example:



    Auto-translate CC (Russian/English) is surprisingly good. Count me impressed (I am Russian/English bilingual) - algorithm correctly shifted sentence structure to accommodate language norms.

    BTW, computer language recognition has achieved a real high. Have you read computer's cool-n-collected explanation why a joke is funny? Or computer generated cartoon to visualize "bear confused by calculus."

    You should...
     
  12. Kirk

    Kirk pfm Member

    Corbyn is on safe ground with his peace message. Most want peace in Ukraine but while there are those in the world who want war (see Putin), most of us can agree that pacifism and platitudes (see Corbyn) are not credible or viable solutions to stopping Putin. One wonders why Corbyn isn't engaging in shuttle diplomacy with Ukraine and Russia. It would certainly bolster his peace credentials and demonstrate that he truly is a man of principle.
     
    klfrs likes this.
  13. anubisgrau

    anubisgrau pfm Member

    I haven't followed what's going on since I departed for my island in late June. Any important developments? It seems like no one has won yet, right?
     
    ks.234 likes this.
  14. Metlor

    Metlor pfm Member

    Corbyn can't help himself, as a life long pacifist.
    Would that his views had been listened to on Iraq and Afghanistan, as droodzilla says.

    I don't agree with his position on Ukraine, if Corbyn was expressing pacifist views inside Russia he could well be facing many years in prison.
    I was arguing with a pacifist the other week, though, I could offer no certainly of a Ukrainian "victory", just a hope that Putin's will doesn't prevail.
    I fear the losses when this finally ends will be staggering.

    More than Corbyn though, I find it weird that given all Johnson's and the Tories sucking up to the Russian elites that the UK and the west were largely caught out by Putin's moves ?
     
  15. anubisgrau

    anubisgrau pfm Member

    But no UK or US losses so all fine...
     
    ks.234 and Klassik like this.
  16. gints

    gints pfm Member

    Do not much care what Corbyn speaks or thinks, there are thousands of Ukraine troops on training in UK by UK instructors, good for UK. Actions matter. Swedish instructors also joining in. There are simply no place to do in Ukraine as Russian rockets can cover all teritory.
     
  17. PsB

    PsB Citizen of Nowhere™

    The Finns are also sending 100 instructors to Britain to help train Ukrainian soldiers.
     
    klfrs, TheDecameron and MUTTY1 like this.
  18. gints

    gints pfm Member

    Good for Finns. Closer neighbors see better what Russia was and become, less useless philosophical discussions.
     
    MUTTY1 likes this.
  19. MUTTY1

    MUTTY1 Waste of bandwidth

    Thank heavens for countries that have been in close contact with Russia and can remind us of real politic whilst some think its more important to know whether Corbyn has been slightly right occasionally. Sticking the tail on the donkey whilst blindfolded comes to mind.
     
    gints likes this.
  20. DimitryZ

    DimitryZ pfm Member

    Actually, several UK, US and other nations' volunteers died in this war. Some have been sentenced to death, in contravention of the Geneva convention.

    There are separate Georgian, Belorussian and International batalions fighting in this war. I am sure they have suffered casualties.
     
    TheDecameron and klfrs like this.

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