PsB
Citizen of Nowhere™
Do you believe Russia has a universal right to bomb its neighbours' civilian infrastructure without any consequences?
As for the rest, good to see you taking an interest in the Hollywood microcosm.
Ukraine V
- Thread starter DimitryZ
- Start date
As for the rest, good to see you taking an interest in the Hollywood microcosm.
anubisgrau
pfm Member
PsB
Citizen of Nowhere™
I'm not necessarily saying you wrote that, but I was asking you a straightforward question. No discernible answer.
Moving on to your latest statement: you may advocate open NATO involvement on Russian territory (a bizarre thing to advocate, but there you are), but NATO is not about to get into any of that. Ukraine is receiving weapons and advice from NATO member countries, period. Think of it along the lines of the support Vietnam received from China and Russia during the 60s and early 70s. Did that mean China and Russia declared war on South Vietnam or the US? No, they were just supporting North Vietnam.
anubisgrau
pfm Member
I believe the comparison with Vietnam war is simply not valid in this case. That was basically a civil war in a country of a no big importance for the world's affairs (apart from the involvement of powers). Here we have Russia in Europe, seen by West as the major threat to world order, peace and stability (along with China, maybe?). My honest (and maybe wrong) opinion is that Ukraine is heavily manipulated to stop Russia proceeding with usurpation of what doesn't belong to her. NATO should sort that out directly.
TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
Putin is now using his ‘super weapons’ he threatened the West with if they tried to stop his invasion of Ukraine or if NATO didn’t clear out of Europe. They’re raining hypersonic missiles on Ukrainian civil infrastructure and on civilians with no means of interception post-launch. The launch platforms will have to be eliminated to save lives in Ukraine.
PsB
Citizen of Nowhere™
Vietnam is an important country. Old civilization, twice the population of Ukraine and almost double its GDP. You could say Vietnam is more important to the world's affairs than Ukraine. I think you have a hopelessly Eurocentric view of the world.
Russia is another important country, but it has the GDP of Italy and a declining population. Even at PPP, its GDP is less than half India's and roughly in line with Indonesia's. The only reason it attracts so much attention these days is because of its attempts to consolidate and extend its crumbling empire - a desperate attempt to be "relevant".
Civil war is one way of describing the Vietnam war, but there are others... Come to think of it, Russia has tried to describe events in the Donbas in the same way.
Back to my previous question: do you believe Russia has a universal right to bomb its neighbours' civilian infrastructure without any consequences? Should it have that right?
Seeker_UK
Feelin' nearly faded as my jeans
The fact that even in a fit of pique, Putin could only spare six, says all you need to know about the long-term threat that particular weapon poses.
Bart
pfm Member
They should invite lavrov and putin to speak, though I don’t think that pair would accept somehow.
TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
While he’s slowly turning Ukrainian cities into road gravel, he can deploy other means to extend his fascism into Georgia, Moldova and the rest. Belarus is sorted, Hungary too- unless Orban’s Damascene conversion can be believed.
DonQuixote99
pfm Member
In other words, we are moving away from 'Russians get to blow up f*cking everything in Ukraine, but the Sacred Soil of Russia must not be violated.'
DimitryZ
pfm Member
@anubisgrau , like most in the Russian World, believes in the feudal notion that all Russians worldwide and the lands where they are belong to the Russian warlord - at this time Putin. The warlord has the complete power to decide the future and death of all his surfs.
This is the foundational principal of RW, a sort of pan-Russian national idea. And that's why Russian support for Putin remains very high.
DimitryZ
pfm Member
That's the second main idea that motivates you - to see Americans die.
Unfortunately for you, dying for your pleasure is not our destiny.
DimitryZ
pfm Member
Countries don't need to be "manipulated" to defend their territory.
DimitryZ
pfm Member
By the way, @anubisgrau original post about his grandfather's experience as a slave laborer in Germany and any references to it are being studiously erased by the moderator.
This is a forum for adults and @anubisgrau published it freely and quite proudly.
I believe it's an important detail from his past that sheds light on his current worldview - and something he elected to share with us.
I emplore the moderator not to be an arbiter of... propriety.
This is a forum for adults and @anubisgrau published it freely and quite proudly.
I believe it's an important detail from his past that sheds light on his current worldview - and something he elected to share with us.
I emplore the moderator not to be an arbiter of... propriety.
Tony L
Administrator
Given the trajectory over recent days I am removing ad hominem when ever I notice it or it is reported. It should be more than possible to frame any discussion on Russia, Ukraine, western involvement etc without any personal attacks or attempts at point-scoring. To be honest I’m getting very tired of moderating this thread, it is wasting a lot of time, though I am very reluctant to remove posters with direct experience of these areas. Please can everyone stick to the topic, not bat posters.
Hook
Blackbeard's former bo'sun.
Agreed 100%. It’s depressing watching fishes respond emotionally to troll bait. IMV, it is always best to recognize bait for what is and, despite the temptation, ignore it.
DimitryZ
pfm Member
This particular post from @anubisgrau wasn't his typical bait, but was offered in the context of forced deportation of citizens during war and his opinion that Ukranians freely escape to Russia in large numbers and Russia deserves credit for that.
We exchanged our family's WW2 histories about deportation - my Ukrainian family friend was a forced farm laborer in Germany as an 18 year old girl until freed by the allies. She always said it was the worst years of her life. His grandfather, also a forced laborer in Germany for most of the war, had a very different experience, which is the foundational story of all @anubisgrau s.
It is actually an interesting and unique story, that's probably very uncommon. Instead of Henrik Boll's "Group Portrait with Lady," it's more of a group portrait with grandpa.
And it highlights complexities in determination of who is a refugee, who is a deportee and who is moving willingly. For example, some Ukranians in Russian occupied territory agreed to go to remote Siberian towns when Russian authorities promised them a place to live and a job, but there was none there. Who are they? With no money and no papers, they are stranded there.
My own case is also ambiguous. We came out of USSR as stateless refugees, but I don't think we truly qualified as such under international law.
Hook
Blackbeard's former bo'sun.
Agreed that background can be interesting and relevant. Both of my maternal Grandparents left Kiev and emigrated to America immediately after World War I. They both spoke Russian, and settled in Brighton Beach (a.k.a., Little Odessa), NY, where my Mom was born in 1921.
His comment about Russia taking in Ukrainian refugees was obvious propaganda. I understand the urge to correct the record, but you must have seen it has no effect on him. No apologies, no self-correction. He is shameless, and will continue trolling so long as anyone replies, or even takes notice.
My experience tells me that if he is completely ignored, his trolling will lessen and possibly cease. Unfortunately, that theory isn’t being put to the test. Quite the opposite, including this post of mine. Am sure he’s delighted that we are taking notice of his nonsense.
anubisgrau
pfm Member
DimitryZ
pfm Member
It's all standard issue stuff, nothing exciting.
Half the family killed in the Holocaust, mother separated from parents early in the war, spent 2 years in Belorussian village hiding her Jewish identity as a 7 years old. Grandfather killed in the Leningrad front, other grandfather lost a leg. Grandma rescued from the siege of Leningrad over the Road of Life, made her way to Belorussia during the war to get her daughter, then evacuated to Siberia.
We came out in 1977 as stateless refugees under a detente deal that let some Jews leave.
Every Russian Jewish American family has a similar story. Lots of members killed in the war, finally found a way to leave the Russian World.