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Torys vote to keep SH*T in the water.

Discussion in 'off topic' started by Dogberry, Oct 26, 2021.

  1. Seanm

    Seanm pfm Member

    It’s not just a comms issue, it’s a question of figuring out what’s going on and understanding its broader significance, which means distinguishing minor causes from major, short term from long term factors etc. If this all comes down to a shortage of chemicals due to transportation issues it’s a storm in a teacup, really, because it will be resolved before very long, Brexit or no Brexit. If it’s symptomatic of deeper issues regarding transportation, utilities, accountability - then Brexit doesn't explain much and is basically a distraction.

    There are lots of obvious differences between the UK and much of Europe that might explain why we seem especially badly affected - we’re an island, we have an absentee government, our utilities are run for profit, transport infrastructure is run down etc. - and presumably any number of less obvious reasons such as the one Gav points to. Brexit’s obviously in the mix but it’s not clear it’s the key difference.
  2. TheDecameron

    TheDecameron Unicorns fart glitter.

    It seems every week the Conservatives draw back the curtain on a new debasement for Britain and I’m surprised Johnson’s SpAds haven’t suggested Frosty blames this one on the EU.
  3. lordsummit

    lordsummit Moderator

    As did my toad faced newly minted Conservative MP who’s only comments on anything are about preserving green fields. Hopefully we won’t see him again.
  4. Darmok

    Darmok "In Lation, Trans Lost."

    Sue Pertwee-Tyr likes this.
  5. ff1d1l

    ff1d1l pfm Member

    So you want shite-filled rivers to fund your pension, do you?
  6. Sue Pertwee-Tyr

    Sue Pertwee-Tyr neither here nor there

    No, that’s a false premise. I’d like my pension fund to invest in businesses that make a legitimate profit, not public utility monopolies that are milked dry. There’s no reason why pension funds should invest in utilities when they could invest elsewhere. The reason they invest in utilities is because there’s money in them; if there wasn’t, they’d move out and put it elsewhere. It’s not as though they’re forced to invest and obliged to accept a null return on anything.
    ff1d1l likes this.
  7. stevec67

    stevec67 pfm Member

    No, I want companies to be properly regulated and people to recognise that "shareholders" are not some evil trough feeding parasites but principally your and my pension funds. If you want to have a pension beyond the state pittance you owe it to yourself to educate yourself as to how it works, unless you plan to work until you are nearly 70 and then live on less than £100pw.
  8. stevec67

    stevec67 pfm Member

    I'm railing against the vilification here of "shareholders" when the reality is that all of us who have a pension are de facto shareholders. This doesn't mean that I want the companies in which I'm invested to mince babies for profit, but those that don't make at least some honest living won't get investment, because it I get zero return I'll move my funds and blow the lot on fizzy pop and Spangles.
    Graham B likes this.
  9. Sue Pertwee-Tyr

    Sue Pertwee-Tyr neither here nor there

    Yes, I’m with you on the vilification of shareholders, but there’s no risk that pensions would be obligated to accept zero return. Why would they? They’d just invest the fund differently, not in public utilities.
  10. ff1d1l

    ff1d1l pfm Member

    Pontius hacked your account?
    You're not the possesor of some unique arcane knowledge, I'm well aware how pension funds work. I imagine most people on here do, but nevertheless very kind of you to mansplain it to me.
    To be perfectly clear, I wouldn't mind my fund dipped by the amount invested in polluting water companies. It's an exceptional case. In any case, I have, since the eighties, been in an ethical fund, and its quite possible it doesn't hold any shares. Still, if you are prepared to make that moral compromise and hold poluters shares, I'll think fondly of you in terms of their contribution to the rivers whenver a floater spirals by. You could, of course, tell your fund that you are unhappy with them holding those shares, and unless they relinquish them you'll walk.
  11. eternumviti

    eternumviti Wittering on the Vine

    I don't know much about pensions, but I believe you can invest in 'ethical' ones.
  12. stevec67

    stevec67 pfm Member

    Stop banging on about evil shareholders then. You are one.
  13. Ponty

    Ponty pfm Member

    Do you feel they’d be better run under public ownership? I’d suggest the public utility companies were largely woeful. Growing up in Cornwall, crap in the sea was always an issue eg the formation of surfers against sewage was just after south west water was formed (privatised) because they could actually do something about the problem.
  14. ff1d1l

    ff1d1l pfm Member

    Self justifying toss.
  15. Joe Hutch

    Joe Hutch Mate of the bloke

    It seems to me that this was a perfect 'shoot yourself in the foot' exercise.

    Tories: When we leave the EU, we will ensure that the UK has even higher environmental standards than the EU.

    Lords: OK, let's see some action on that front.

    Tories: Oh no, that would be too expensive, anyway it's all private companies' fault, nothing we can do, sorry.

    They can't blame the EU for this fiasco. That may actually be a tiny benefit of leaving.
    PsB and sideshowbob like this.
  16. PsB

    PsB Citizen of Nowhere™

    ^one minor problem is they’re starting to run out of feet.
  17. eternumviti

    eternumviti Wittering on the Vine

    Do you have an issue with green fields, or just tory MPs?

    You've just named one of the most compelling reasons for leaving the EU. The government can no longer hide its grubbier deeds behind the EU. It is directly accountable for its decisions.
  18. MikeMA

    MikeMA pfm Member

    The same way it works along the coast here in Hastings where we've had major problems with raw sewage getting into the sea and our totally useless Tory MP Sally-Ann Hart also voted against the amendment.
  19. lordsummit

    lordsummit Moderator

    I have an issue with toady MPs who do nothing for an area except make a fuss about one issue then vote hypocritically. He really is an obnoxious little turd who batted the local Catholic priest from his Facebook page for asking an uncomfortable question. He won’t get in again, I suspect the red wall will get this one back.
  20. stevec67

    stevec67 pfm Member

    No, I don't think so. The issue is one of effective regulation. I don't believe the bit about "privatised companies can actually do something about it" . The ineffectual public ownership trope is just as lazy as the one about evil capitalism and shareholder leeches. That there are examples of both does not justify the generalisation. If companies are ineffectual, they generally fold. If they are effectively regulated then they realise that breaking the rules is costly and that fines hammer the bottom line, so they behave.

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