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Tory leadership failure Part V: Rishi ‘Infosys’ Sunak

Tony L said:
Not to my mind. We currently have a FPTP system that handed absolute power to a Tory party now riddled with NF/BNP shit like Lee Anderson, Jonathan Gullis etc. This sort of bigoted racist scum would never get to a position of absolute power under PR. Not a hope in hell. They’d get a few gammons on the back benches, but that is the extent of it and they’d be more than balanced out by a very much increased Green and left vote. Splitting the real fascists and nationalists away from the mainstream Tories would also reduce the Tory vote, so that’s a win too.

I’m pretty sure things would roughly follow national voteshare stats with >60% being basically progressive, <40% right-wing. That is a functional system. It will never be as progressive or radical as some of us would like, but neither would it facilitate the system we have now where a minority Tory elite have gang-raped the country for over 90 of the past 120 years. There are some variables, e.g. those who currently understand they are disenfranchised in safe seats and don’t vote are an unknown number and may or may not balance out evenly. I certainly do not fear democracy, though the current FPTP system terrifies me as it is so clearly leading us to fascism.

If in any doubt about PR ask yourself why the Conservatives, like their Republican equivalents fear real democracy so much? The answer is they understand full well that it will end them. They know they can never obtain power democratically as the majority of people oppose their ideology.
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But under PR, there is a distinct chance the electorate will return more "NF/BNP shit". Fringe parties would be given a more obvious and 'less-rigged' pathway to power, and then once in power could enter into a coalition with other like-minded parties (or for that matter traditional parties who need the votes to form a government). There's also some research that says that the UK electorate 2:1 leans against left-wing cultural positions (FT), which suggests that even under PR, the cultural right will maintain a powerful voice if not an overall majority. And no turkey will consciously vote for Christmas, so in rejecting PR the Tories are on firm ground there.
 
Crosbie and the other things slivering around in the basement of Downing St have probably told them the only way through now is a no rules bare knuckle fight. Tell the mugs watching that an existential fight for the Tories is by extrapolation an existential fight for the British Nation. It’ll be the same menu as MAGA and Russia First.
 
Kirk said:
But under PR, there is a distinct chance the electorate will return more "NF/BNP shit".
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The voteshare doesn’t back that up. Even at peak UKIP the political right was still a minority vote and the UKIP vote contained a lot of conned Labour voters who didn’t understand it was a far-right party that stood against progressive taxation and believed in private healthcare etc etc. Farage narrowed this even further with the Brexit Party which was just a single-cause pressure group with no manifesto, ideology or political structure.

The UK electorate votes somewhere around 60% progressive. To be honest if I’m wrong I’d prefer to accept fascism with a genuine electoral mandate rather see it enforced by the Conservative Party without anything remotely approaching that. Again just do the math. Review the last century of election results by voteshare. It is very clear to me the overwhelming majority would have hung to the left/progressive side under PR. None would have been won by the right, let alone outright.
 
Tony L said:
The voteshare doesn’t back that up. Even at peak UKIP the political right was still a minority vote and the UKIP vote contained a lot of conned Labour voters who didn’t understand it was a far-right party that stood against progressive taxation and believed in private healthcare etc etc. Farage narrowed this even further with the Brexit Party which was just a single-cause pressure group with no manifesto, ideology or political structure.

The UK electorate votes somewhere around 60% progressive. To be honest if I’m wrong I’d prefer to accept fascism with a genuine electoral mandate rather see it enforced by the Conservative Party without anything remotely approaching that. Again just do the math. Review the last century of election results by voteshare. It is very clear to me the overwhelming majority would have hung to the left/progressive side under PR. None would have been won by the right, let alone outright.
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If we accept the premise that LibDems are "progressive" ;) Starmer might make some of them appear to be so but a large number are really not - disgruntled Tories who would never vote Labour.
 
Tony L said:
The voteshare doesn’t back that up. Even at peak UKIP the political right was still a minority vote and the UKIP vote contained a lot of conned Labour voters who didn’t understand it was a far-right party that stood against progressive taxation and believed in private healthcare etc etc. Farage narrowed this even further with the Brexit Party which was just a single-cause pressure group with no manifesto, ideology or political structure.

The UK electorate votes somewhere around 60% progressive. To be honest if I’m wrong I’d prefer to accept fascism with a genuine electoral mandate rather see it enforced by the Conservative Party without anything remotely approaching that. Again just do the math. Review the last century of election results by voteshare. It is very clear to me the overwhelming majority would have hung to the left/progressive side under PR. None would have been won by the right, let alone outright.
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I think what these snakes had learned is that vote share and elected representatives are secondary to other forms of power. UKIP, the Brexit Party, Reform, Reclaim et al exploit social media along with cash flow and share of voice from non dom and other tax dodgers the Barclays, Murdoch, Dacre and Porno Desmond so that the tail wags the dog. The human ashtray Farage couldnt get into Parliament but he bounced a serving Prime Minister into a face off over the EU in 2016 and the rest is history. Now there are multiple tribute acts inc an entire section of the Tory PP.
 
gavreid said:
If we accept the premise that LibDems are "progressive" ;) Starmer might make some of them appear to be so but a large number are really not - disgruntled Tories who would never vote Labour.
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We keep coming back to this, but all my voting life I have viewed the LDs to be more moderate than Labour on the things that really matter to me; democracy, accountability, human rights, civil liberties, standing against nationalism, authoritarianism, imperialism. Labour may once in the distant past have had a progressive tax vision, but Blair showed what they really believed. As very likely the lowest income person posing here I’d also point out that the LD’s forced the Tories hand and cut tax from the bottom making life better for the self employed for a while. Something Labour had failed to do in three terms. That’s not to suggest the coalition wasn’t a total disaster, it clearly was.

I just don’t think Labour are a progressive party in reality. The odd idealist in the party may make the argument now and again, but there are a hundred Blair/Starmers for every one of them and the result is always an authoritarian-right and socially conservative party little different from the Tory left, but with far more flags and nationalism. They stand firmly against democracy, against accountability, for Brexit, for the monarchy and for the establishment status quo. They don’t even believe in trade unions anymore, which is the one area they should be way to the left of the LDs on.

I’m a floating voter, I always have been, and based on parliamentary and HoL voting record (the only real test IMHO) I’ll take the LDs over Labour every time. They are consistently more democratic, less socially conservative and vastly less authoritarian/nationalist.
 
Tony L said:
We keep coming back to this, but all my voting life I have viewed the LDs to be more moderate than Labour on the things that really matter to me; democracy, accountability, human rights, civil liberties, standing against nationalism, authoritarianism, imperialism. Labour may once in the distant past have had a progressive tax vision, but Blair showed what they really believed. As very likely the lowest income person posing here I’d also point out that the LD’s forced the Tories hand and cut tax from the bottom making life better for the self employed for a while. Something Labour had failed to do in three terms. That’s not to suggest the coalition wasn’t a total disaster, it clearly was.

I just don’t think Labour are a progressive party in reality. The odd idealist in the party may make the argument now and again, but there are a hundred Blair/Starmers for every one of them and the result is always an authoritarian-right and socially conservative party little different from the Tory left, but with far more flags and nationalism. They stand firmly against democracy, against accountability, for Brexit, for the monarchy and for the establishment status quo. They don’t even believe in trade unions anymore, which is the one area they should be way to the left of the LDs on.

I’m a floating voter, I always have been, and based on parliamentary and HoL voting record (the only real test IMHO) I’ll take the LDs over Labour every time. They are consistently more democratic, less socially conservative and vastly less authoritarian/nationalist.
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You do but then you do vote Labour in a straight fight. A lot of these part-time Tory voters in the South never would in a month of Sundays. They despise unions, are generally supportive of the nelib agenda, are pro European in the way that certain Tories used to be, probably support the nhs but are likely to think pay for staff is inflationary etc etc
 
gavreid said:
They despise unions, are generally supportive of the nelib agenda, are pro European in the way that certain Tories used to be, probably support the nhs but are likely to think pay for staff is inflationary etc etc
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Aside from being pro-EU that is 100% the Labour position!
 
gavreid said:
Well yes but many would still never vote even for Starmer!
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That kind of moderate ‘wet’ pro-EU Tory would very likely be put off Starmer by the nationalism and authoritarianism. It is the demographic I come from and I think the LDs will do very well just by appearing so much kinder and more tolerant. They won’t be the ones throwing the LGBTQ+ community and refugees under the bus to appeal to the Daily Mail and ex-UKIP voters. Starmer is doing precisely that. I’m certain there are a lot of Tories who feel now totally disenfranchised since Johnson’s purge took the party to the very worst of the Trump/Farage alt-right. It was no surprise to me the real success stories in the recent council elections were the LDs and Greens. Starmer is stuck between his gammon and a hard place.
 
Tony L said:
That kind of moderate ‘wet’ pro-EU Tory would very likely be put off Starmer by the nationalism and authoritarianism. It is the demographic I come from and I think the LDs will do very well just by appearing so much kinder and more tolerant. They won’t be the ones throwing the LGBTQ+ community and refugees under the bus to appeal to the Daily Mail and ex-UKIP voters. Starmer is doing precisely that. I’m certain there are a lot of Tories who feel now totally disenfranchised since Johnson’s purge took the party to the very worst of the Trump/Farage alt-right. It was no surprise to me the real success stories in the recent council elections were the LDs and Greens. Starmer is stuck between his gammon and a hard place.
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This is farmers we're talking about;)
 
gavreid said:
This is farmers we're talking about;)
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I was thinking more of the Heidi Allens, Sarah Woolastons, Rory Stewarts etc. The unchallenging voices of the leafy upper middle-class suburbs. If not a silent majority, certainly still a very substantial demographic. They’d not vote Labour, and being honest there may be some class snobbery in that (my family would have been the same), but certainly bright enough to see what is happening post-Johnson and to be thoroughly repelled by it. I suspect the LDs will get a lot of their votes.
 
Sunak, Man of the People and selfless servant to us all, falls down the Rich List.

Teachers and nurses should surely be having a whip round for the poor chap

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Tony L said:
The voteshare doesn’t back that up. Even at peak UKIP the political right was still a minority vote and the UKIP vote contained a lot of conned Labour voters who didn’t understand it was a far-right party that stood against progressive taxation and believed in private healthcare etc etc. Farage narrowed this even further with the Brexit Party which was just a single-cause pressure group with no manifesto, ideology or political structure.

The UK electorate votes somewhere around 60% progressive. To be honest if I’m wrong I’d prefer to accept fascism with a genuine electoral mandate rather see it enforced by the Conservative Party without anything remotely approaching that. Again just do the math. Review the last century of election results by voteshare. It is very clear to me the overwhelming majority would have hung to the left/progressive side under PR. None would have been won by the right, let alone outright.
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A bit of Googling - if we PR 2019, the Conservatives would get over 300 seats (depending on which PR system is plugged into the numbers). This doesn't exactly change the narrative. OK, 2019 was a bit special for all the wrong reasons but I'm not convinced PR will rid us of the Tories in the manner you suggest. I guess it all depends though on which flavour of PR you are advocating.
 
Kirk said:
A bit of Googling - if we PR 2019, the Conservatives would get over 300 seats (depending on which PR system is plugged into the numbers). This doesn't exactly change the narrative. OK, 2019 was a bit special for all the wrong reasons but I'm not convinced PR will rid us of the Tories in the manner you suggest. I guess it all depends though on which flavour of PR you are advocating.
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It won’t get rid of them, but it will ensure they never have absolute power the way they have had for over 90 of the past 120 years.

There are 650 seats, and by 2019 there was no one who would go into coalition with them. Not even the raving nutters that are the DUP. That means even as the party with the nost seats there is no way in hell they’d have been able to force through the far-right policies and erosion of our basic human rights and civil liberties that has happened since then. It would have protected us from their extremism and enabled real scrutiny.
 
ff1d1l said:
Warnings by senior tories(Hat Mancock, Vaizey, Hezza) that the current unrepentant tory swing to the right will lead to meltdown and destruction of the party at the next election.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...yle-takeover-could-precipitate-party-meltdown
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There seems to be yet another splinter-group; ‘New Conservatives’ who comprise the absolute worst thugs, morons and monsters the Conservative party has to offer and have a logo that appears to be a graphical representation some sort of virus or toxic contagion (Twitter). There is seemingly no end to this shit. A bottomless gammon hellmouth spewing far-right pustules across every reality.
 
paulfromcamden said:
Story in The Times that when Suella Braverman was caught speeding last Summer she tried to get civil servants to arrange a private speed awareness course so she wouldn't be visible to the other participants. Civil servants refused. Course provider refused. Ha!

https://twitter.com/HarryYorke1/status/1659951990741368834
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It gets worse- the Home Secretary had her official lie to journalists by claiming she never received a fine and penalty points for speeding, instead claiming it was a conspiracy against her by political enemies. There you have it, the Minister for collecting taxes gets a multimillion pound fine for failing to declare taxable wealth and the law and order minister has her flunky lie that she had never received a fine and penalty points for a road traffic offence. It’s the Tory way.
https://twitter.com/johnestevens/status/1660284590244651009?s=61&t=novyCm2QooMZoRvqeBbwZg
 
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