Tone Poet Blue Notes

[paulfromcamden]

Got back from a few days away late yesterday and this morning found, my even more elderly than me, neighbour had had his computer and bank account hacked with money taken and he was being inundated with more scams phone calls. I felt helping him resolve it all was my top priority today.

Sorry to hear that Jim. It happened to a family member. We only found out months later as they were too embarrassed to say anything.

 

[John]

I bought Lee Morgan - The Rajah blind because I like the players and got 30% off. Anyone have this?

https://store.bluenote.com/collecti...organ-the-rajah-lp-blue-note-tone-poet-series

 

[gavreid]

I bought Lee Morgan - The Rajah blind because I like the players and got 30% off. Anyone have this?

Mine's quite noisy but it's a good one.

 

[kjb]

Sorry to break the news to you, the Henderson LP sounds better than the CDs (although the CDs themselves are very good).

I gave in and ordered them both.

 

[gavreid]

I gave in an ordered them both.

 

[kjb]

Indeed.

 

[gavreid]

Indeed.

I've found that the Sugden amps sound magnificent with beautiful vinyl like that but they also give a bit of warmth to good digital too that's really helpful. La la la la la

 

[kjb]

I've found that the Sugden amps sound magnificent with beautiful vinyl like that but they also give a bit of warmth to good digital too that's really helpful. La la la la la

You can stop that right now!

Although you really should try the Leben integrated

 

[paulfromcamden]

Joe Harley posted this photo of Ornette 'Round Trip' box sets.

 

[hockman]

That's great. Incredible session and good sound, I am sure you won't regret it. There are worse ways to spend your money. I am still missing one volume. It's on back order.

I gave in and ordered them both.

 

[kjb]

That's great. Incredible session and good sound, I am sure you won't regret it. There are worse ways to spend your money. I am still missing one volume. It's on back order.

These arrived today - very quick delivery (with high quality packing).

I've had a first play and they are indeed better than the already good CD. The instrumentation is on a bigger scale with more of a sense of the acoustics of the room they are being played in. The mastering has also improved the sound of Ron Carter's bass which on the CDs has always sounded more like an electric than acoustic bass. I can now hear the resonance of the instrument when he is playing. It would be worth the upgrade just for this.

These may not be the most cutting edge or historically significant TPs but they are lovely sounding records full of great music and are going to get played a lot.

 

[poco a poco]

These arrived today - very quick delivery (with high quality packing).

I've had a first play and they are indeed better than the already good CD. The instrumentation is on a bigger scale with more of a sense of the acoustics of the room they are being played in. The mastering has also improved the sound of Ron Carter's bass which on the CDs has always sounded more like an electric than acoustic bass. I can now hear the resonance of the instrument when he is playing. It would be worth the upgrade just for this.

These may not be the most cutting edge or historically significant TPs but they are lovely sounding records full of great music and are going to get played a lot.

It is an acoustic bass, but he does use an electric pickup on it with these that I have never really liked neither did he and he eventually abandoned it. I think I posted way back in this thread an interview with Ron Carter where he complains about having to use electric bass (or pickups) in the past. I originally had a CD and a BN75 of Vol. 1, but I agree when I got these on release although not perfect I thought in these masterings the bass sounds much better and with a bit more natural resonance. Much, much better than Jimmy Merritt’s Ampeg Bass on the otherwise excellent Lee Morgan Complete Lighthouse Box Set.

 

[kjb]

It is an acoustic bass, but he does use an electric pickup on it with these that I have never really liked neither did he and he eventually abandoned it. I think I posted way back in this thread an interview with Ron Carter where he complains about having to use electric bass (or pickups) in the past. I originally had a CD and a BN75 of Vol. 2, but I agree when I got these on release although not perfect I thought in these masterings the bass sounds much better and with a bit more natural resonance. Much, much better than Jimmy Merritt’s Ampeg Bass on the otherwise excellent Lee Morgan Complete Lighthouse Box Set.

This might be a bit "groundhog day" as, now you mention it, I also seem to recall discussing this a few years ago.

I've always thought the bass on the CD sounded like a direct feed from the pickup or a combination of pickup and mic rather than a mic near the instrument. It captured the note but not the timbre or resonance of the instrument. There's still an element of this tbh but the mastering has given a much rounder tone and a greater sense of the presence of the instrument - something the TP's have been excellent at IMO.

I'm indebted to @hockman for tempting me over the line with these records.

 

[paulfromcamden]

I've always thought the bass on the CD sounded like a direct feed from the pickup or a combination of pickup and mic rather than a mic near the instrument.

I wonder if that was a limitation of playing on a tiny stage right next to the drum kit i.e. a mic on the bass would have just become another drum mic. The Vanguard stage doesn't allow for much separation!

 

[kjb]

Interesting point. I've just been playing the records again and noting how low in the mix the drums are. There are a few points where it almost sounds more like a bass/sax duet than a trio. It seems a little odd for a live recording so that might well explain both the bass sound and the drum balance.

 

[hockman]

The Vanguard's stage is indeed small but it could accommodate more than a trio, and the bass sound is not a consequence of the cramped quarters. I think it has more to do with the recording engineer's technique, experience, equipment, or even style/fashion. There have been many storied recordings at the Vanguard and they varied in sound. Compare the recordings of the Bill Evans Trio (wonderful) to the Coltrane (ok) to the more recent Brad Mehldau Trio (muddy).

Joe Henderson's live performance was recorded by two of the finest jazz engineers around - David Baker and Jim Anderson. So I don't think it was because of poor engineering technique or experience.

During the 1970s-80s, it was fashionable to record the bass with a direct pick up that gave it a truncated sound without the natural bloom and decay of a standing bass. This happened in the studios not just live recordings. Thankfully, this practice became largely out of favor in the late 80s and 90s. If you look at e.g. Branford Marsalis' CBS albums of the late 80s, it was prominently noted that "to obtain more wood sound from the bass, this album was recorded without usage of the dreaded bass direct!"

I wonder if that was a limitation of playing on a tiny stage right next to the drum kit i.e. a mic on the bass would have just become another drum mic. The Vanguard stage doesn't allow for much separation!

 

[hockman]

Indeed.

But I do think these were great sessions that stand up very well in comparison with the famed Sonny Rollins live at the VV recordings on Blue Note. And sound-wise, the Henderson ones are superior.

These arrived today - very quick delivery (with high quality packing).

I've had a first play and they are indeed better than the already good CD. The instrumentation is on a bigger scale with more of a sense of the acoustics of the room they are being played in. The mastering has also improved the sound of Ron Carter's bass which on the CDs has always sounded more like an electric than acoustic bass. I can now hear the resonance of the instrument when he is playing. It would be worth the upgrade just for this.

These may not be the most cutting edge or historically significant TPs but they are lovely sounding records full of great music and are going to get played a lot.

 

[paulfromcamden]

@hockman good points. Taste and fashion certainly play a large role in how recordings are mixed. It reminds me of this quote by the owner of Reservoir Records on why he stopped using RVG.

Feldman's reservations mostly had to do with bass: "I thought it was often too loud. Usually, he recorded the bass on different tracks, one from a mike placed in front of the bass and one from a direct input into the board from the pickup on the bass. Rudy mixed and mastered his own sessions, and often his mixes favored the direct input. I didn't like the sound. I felt it made an acoustic bass sound too much like an electric."

https://www.stereophile.com/content/reservoir-story-page-2

 

[gavreid]

These arrived today - very quick delivery (with high quality packing).

I've had a first play and they are indeed better than the already good CD. The instrumentation is on a bigger scale with more of a sense of the acoustics of the room they are being played in. The mastering has also improved the sound of Ron Carter's bass which on the CDs has always sounded more like an electric than acoustic bass. I can now hear the resonance of the instrument when he is playing. It would be worth the upgrade just for this.

These may not be the most cutting edge or historically significant TPs but they are lovely sounding records full of great music and are going to get played a lot.

I gave in and ordered vol 1

 

[John C]

I have the original LPs, CD version and have loved these records for a long time. Tone Poets are definitely better. But… various annoying features like accentuation of the kick drum accents, pulling the bass forward to get that “sonic” taste and actually pushing the saxophone backwards .. . I’m finished with these Tone Poets especially if someone sends me a lovely Japanese copy of the Harold Vick before that release. Perhaps I’m most disappointed in Hockman’s outrageous suggestion( say it ain’t so!) that this undoubtedly excellent session is on the same plane as Sonny Rollins.It simply isn’t.