gavreid
Pretty Words...
Not sure that I'll be buying just yet with the Classics and the Tone Poets coming up in the next fortnight.
Tone Poet Blue Notes
- Thread starter poco a poco
- Start date
Not sure that I'll be buying just yet with the Classics and the Tone Poets coming up in the next fortnight.
kjb
Proof reading not always a strength
Possibly a naive question, but why are Tone Poets and Acoustic Sounds so expensive??
Most of the artists are no longer living and much of the music is out of copyright. The music has already been recorded so no expense there in terms of studio time. The Acoustic sounds series are now nearly twice the price of a standard vinyl release.
Can someone explain the economics to me please??
Most of the artists are no longer living and much of the music is out of copyright. The music has already been recorded so no expense there in terms of studio time. The Acoustic sounds series are now nearly twice the price of a standard vinyl release.
Can someone explain the economics to me please??
Tony L
Administrator
Audiophile stuff is always expensive, always has been, plus these are cut by celebrity mastering engineers and the packaging is just stunning quality. You have to see one to realise just how nice the heavy tip-on gatefold sleeves are. It is also worth noting that all vinyl is expensive now, e.g. an LP direct from an artist on Bandcamp tends to be £20 plus postage. As such I’d argue the price difference between a normal record and an audiophile cut now is a lot less than it was back in say the ‘80s or ‘90s. I bought a lot of Classic Records and DCC stuff at hi-fi shows back in the late ‘90s and they were all £30-35 a throw back then. I think a normal album was about £12 or so, but I can’t remember. I remember cringing at the price even though I was earning good money at the time (thankfully they have proven a great investment, many worth £100+ now!).
PS Some of the real boutique audiophile stuff is arguably taking the piss now, e.g. Electric Recording Co charge about £350 for an album!
gavreid
Pretty Words...
And they're both US imports too
poco a poco
I'm Jim
It is that they are imports here that make them expensive here. The recommended price for Tone Poets in the US is I think $35 about £25, but they are readily available for about €28 under £20. Given the quality of the pressings and sleeves the US price is very good. BN classics where cost savings have been made on the sleeves are about $20 US with discounts and £20 here. Not much difference, but shipping costs will higher to the states from Optimal in Germany to the US than us I would assume. US buyers tend to complain about the US price of these compared to what they pay for Tone Poets.
poco a poco
I'm Jim
I would add the MoFi one steps to that piss taking as well at £180 - £200, but they seem to sell out.
I haven't bought any, but those I have heard seem no better than the Tone Poets.
Tony L
Administrator
I not been especially taken with any MoFi I’ve heard, e.g. a bog standard late-70s UK repress blows the much prized and valuable MoFi DSOTM out of the water to my ears. I’ve only got one, a late-90 pressing of Oscar Peterson and Milt Jackson’s Very Tall, and it’s nice enough, but I’d certainly swap it for a US Verve original. By saying that everyone was raving about the Miles Davis reissues recently. I suspect the brand has gone through many changes over the years.
poco a poco
I'm Jim
I have a couple of the standard ones including Santana Abraxas that I got cheap and they don't sound right to me either. Strange bass sound. Probably an engineered in 'hump' somewhere?
Tony L
Administrator
As I understand it the whole idea originally was they were totally flat master transfers, i.e. they threaded up the tape, ensured peaks were in range, cued up the cutter and did nothing beyond that. Exactly the same as many very early CDs. The problem with that is you potentially lose the art of a great mastering engineer. Good mastering engineers unquestionably add value, that bit of EQ and compression they can bring can make or break a record. As mentioned upthread I go against the audiophile consensus and would take an RVG cut Blue Note or Impulse over and above Tone Poets, Acoustic Sounds, Classic Records etc as to my ears and my understanding RVG captured the intent better, though I do rate all these labels and own many examples. The MoFi albums I’ve heard kind of sound unfinished. The mastering stage is just missing. I suspect they sound very good very, very loud on really high-end kit, but for the way I listen the 1st pressing from country of origin almost always has way more impact and conviction.
poco a poco
I'm Jim
Classic Series:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B09CH3YCK6/?tag=pinkfishmedia-21
Better tO judge yourself:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B09CH3YCK6/?tag=pinkfishmedia-21
Better tO judge yourself:
This site contains affiliate links for which pink fish media may be compensated.
kjb
Proof reading not always a strength
My knowledge of the economics production is limited but they must potentially be good business , even allowing for the smaller economies of scale from limited runs. No artist costs, no studio costs. The costs of the remastering and the better quality sleeves is greater but I wonder how much higher % that costs over the cost for, say, mastering and sleeves for an ECM or Gearbox record. And its worth considering that these are being produced by huge record companies who own the tapes , not small independents who have to lease the tapes.
I get what is said about import costs - even back in the day imports were a premium over UK or European pressed records, but I'm not convinced these are not generating a significant amount more surplus profit for Universal who own both the Blue Note and Acoustic Sounds imprints. They must be rubbing their hands seeing the sales of what I imagine they thought would be a marginal concern.
As a side note, they must also be making a dent in the sales of the boutique labels although the upside is that they might therefore have to focus even more on non mainstream recordings. Mind you, I'm also hoping other larger companies who hold the jazz archive like Concord who the Riverside recordings might be keeping and eye on this and seeing what master tapes they hold.
Bottom line I suppose is the market will ultimately set the price and availability. It feels like Universal are testing consumer tolerance with their pricing of the Acoustic Sounds releases which are now racing ahead of Tone Poets.
Anyway I remain a sucker for these: All Seeing Eye is on order from my local Indie store and the Mingus Acoustic Sounds releases wont be far behind.
Last edited:
Tony L
Administrator
I suspect you are wrong about artist costs. The 50 year thing that enabled all the dreadful DOL etc bootlegs and pirates was an EU thing. I think intellectual property runs longer elsewhere in the world, and these are a US product largely for a US marketplace. They are also a Blue Note product, and if Don Was is using them to raise some revenue in a collapsing low-value streaming marketplace then good on him. Blue Note has a legacy that needs to be properly curated and cared for. It represents one of the finest artistic achievements of the 20th century. Likewise Impulse, Verve and the rest of them. I’m happy to pay to preserve and care for this legacy.
I hope that is true. As stated elsewhere on this thread I wish they’d venture into the ‘70s more. That era produced much great funky soul jazz etc and by that time original vinyl was suffering from oil shortages etc, so not only are original pressings rare, they were never that great. There is a wealth of stuff to mine there. I’d love to see other labels follow suit, there’s a market for them all now.
Graham H
pfm Member
The Jazz Dispensary titles from about 6 years ago, cut in the main by Kevin Gray, Stoughton sleeves, don’t seem to have been continued. Craft appear to have reverted to their standard pressings. Great shame.
poco a poco
I'm Jim
I totally agree good mastering engineers make a big difference to the end product.
It is interesting to hear what Joe Harley says in the Micallef Youtube interviews that Gavried posted (post 1648 - his edit has added the two further parts) that they were considering getting RVG to do the mastering when the Tone Poet series was conceived. If the RVG CD remasters are anything to go by perhaps we may not be rating this series so highly? RVG certainly was was an early adopter of new technology and with it his approach and in that case perhaps not for the better? He has a lot to say about their own approach to mastering these, but does say they did very little to most of the RVG BN masters and in a few cases nothing. "Not better than the originals. Just different".
Tony L
Administrator
I was late to the party on that one, but I managed to find a few. Nice records. The Craft soul/funk ones too, I have Isaac Hayes Shaft & Black Moses, plus the 24 Carat Black album (the latter suffers from playing time as did originals, just way too long for a single LP).
gavreid
Pretty Words...
He did make an important point about 'returns' and mastering for the lowest common denominator in terms of people's record players. RGV rolled off the bass but gave a bit of a boost in the mid bass to compensate, so the bass is there but often indistinct. He kept making the point about the bass pedals on the organ tracks. This would have happened well into the 60s.
Tony L
Administrator
The RVG Edition CDs are so bad I find it very hard to believe RVG had anything to do with them, either that or he had become very deaf and couldn’t interpret what he was hearing from the monitors.
It is interesting to balance the Harley interview with Ken Micallef’s earlier stated opinion that he (like me) prefers RVG-stamped vinyl to the various audiophile reissues. I still maintain the young RVG knew exactly what he was doing and focused on the core artistic intent. Mastering is always a compromise, and turning up the bass and treble, as the TPs tend to do, inevitably has the effect of moving the mid back, and that real bite and attack to the brass, smack to the snare etc is where Blue Notes are to me. Same with Impulse, my RVG-stamped Canadian Spartan Impulse of Coltrane’s Ballads puts him right in the room like no other pressing I’ve ever heard. That can’t be accidental!