Tone Poet Blue Notes

[Theo]

Another thumbs up review of a Tone Poet, except for the use of colour photos, from the man who never used to like reissues only Blue Note originals from the around the period recorded.
https://londonjazzcollector.wordpre...ew-hill-passing-ships-1969-blue-note-tp-2021/

In the comments there is a complaint about distortion that I have seen elsewhere particularly with regard to Plantation Bag. No problems with my copy so it is either just on some copies or the dynamics causing mistracting with some cartridge set ups.

I've listened to a few of his web samples, and I've long been of the opinion that his cart is mistracking, or requires replacing.

 

[paulfromcamden]

I've listened to a few of his web samples, and I've long been of the opinion that his cart is mistracking, or requires replacing.

He seems to have spent a few quid on his system. I wonder if he's a member of any forums?

 

[The Bish]

Quick question, does anyone know if the earlier TP releases will ever be reissued? I’m after Byrd in Flight but cheapest is £39.99, and there aren’t many places which have a copy. Same applies to NHSNHS.

 

[Tony L]

They are stated as not being limited editions and some have certainly been repressed already. I think the core problem is pressing plants are now few in numbers and booked-up months if not years ahead.

 

[poco a poco]

He seems to have spent a few quid on his system. I wonder if he's a member of any forums?

Actually to be fair although I question some of his relative quality statements it was someone named Paul in this case in the further thoughts comments at the bottom that said "side A is ruined by distortion..." JRC seems to think, on just a couple of listens, that it will "become a star Tone Poet release". I am using the SME V, as he uses, as one of my Tone Arms with a Cadenza Bronze with no problems. I also think it is amongst the very best for both music and sound quality.

The consensus of the debate on SH forum would seem to point to it most likely being a mistracking problem for those that do have an issue.

 

[The Bish]

Got my copy of SOTT vol-1 when released and no problem with mine either. I have 38 of those released so far all but one were really excellent pressings. They are addictive . The only one that had the slight problems had just few slightly loud clicks. I got that at a very good price from Amazon France and it was not worth the hassle of returning thre.

STOT Vol-1 was released in August last year and RTI did have some production problems then due to Covid. Definitely worth trying the third copy.

3rd copy of SOTT arrived today from Amazon. This one has a single small dimple on side 1 track 3. Gives a small pop on playback, not too bad but for the money I guess it should be pristine, so will give Juno a go. All the other ones from Amazon have been good. These TPs sound so good, very addictive as you say!

 

[Graham H]

The consensus of the debate on SH forum would seem to point to it most likely being a mistracking problem for those that do have an issue.

I will only be convinced that the problem is mistracking when someone posts a clip of the track free of distortion.

Apparently Dubmart on SHF is going to do just that by tomorrow. Interesting if some people can still hear distortion.

Another Warblegate. Poor old Andrew Hill - he seems jinxed as far as TP are concerned. And here’s me looking forward to Dance With Death next year (which I happen to think is a more interesting album than Passing Ships).

 

[poco a poco]

Graham,
I will have another much more careful listen to my copy. I know it sounded 'hot' in places, but not obviously distorted to me.

I assumed you would have brought a copy as it is Andrew Hill? If so how does yours sound. I really like the music as well as the sound on this, but I am looking forward to Dance With Death as well.

Yes Andrew in combination with Joe Harley does seem to stir up a fuss on SH Forum.

 

[Graham H]

Graham, I assumed you would have brought a copy as it is Andrew Hill? If so how does yours sound. I really like the music as well as the sound on this, but I am looking forward to Dance With Death as well.

Hi Jim - I hear distortion on just Joe Farrell’s sax on said track, almost like he is playing a plastic reed with a metal mouthpiece too close to the mic. I’m using a painstakingly aligned Hana ML at 2g, and reluctant at this stage to increase VTF as every other record I play sounds fine. It’s odd that the distortion is only on sax, everything else in the fairly complex mix at the point of distortion is clear.

I have a new AT95ML/SME 3009 on my second TT which I will try later, alongside a Shure V15iii which will track anything. I’m sceptical about this problem as you never know what people can hear or are hearing - one candidate from the “ it’s your setup” school of thought thinks Joe Farrell is playing soprano sax when he’s actually playing tenor; unforgivable. As I say, I’d like to hear a version posted without distortion, but no one seems to be in a hurry to do this.

Ultimately it doesn’t actually bother me too much, and later in the week I’m hopefully auditioning an Ortofon Cadenza Bronze - a friend uses one in a similar 301 set up to me and it sounds sublime - so it will be interesting to see how it copes with Passing Ships.

 

[poco a poco]

OK I have just finished a much more critical listen to the sound on Passing Ships. I have to say this not a very enjoyable way to listen I may have done this years ago, but now I question why anyone other than the recording engineer and mastering engineer would want to do this. I kept wanting to get back into the music that was dragging me in and had to force myself to listen for faults. I hope this doesn't spoil Passing Ships for me in future listens.

I played in all through once. Then I had a careful listen twice more to the most critiqued track, Plantation Bag. I am hearing no mistracking with my arm and cartridge (SME V, Cadenza Bronze at 2.5 VTF). Nearly all of it is recorded quite hot particularly the sax and horns as Van Gelder was inclined to do and he did on occasion overload the mikes. Inspite of this I am not really hearing any overload distortion either on my copy.

To be more specific with the track Plantation Bag which I gave more consideration, I have not seen any specifics with regard to timings on this track where the overload occurred, but I have listed some of the real hot spots below that might be a problem with approx times, mins secs, from track start:

1.30 - 1.35, 2.00, 2.30 - 2.35. This in Joe Farrell's sax solo, the most criticised. At all the points he is playing in the upper register and the trumpets come in briefly and high and play hot above him. You should hear them well over in the left channel an separate from his sax though. If people are not it could I suppose sound like distortion?

3.40 - 3.45 Dizzy Reece's trumpet is really loud and hot here.

5.00 I think I saw some criticism of distortion on Ron Carter's bass. At this point he is doing some remarkable things with his playing sort of both 'bending and sustaining the note'. May be this is what some people are hearing as distortion?

5.00 -6.50 Andrew Hill is playing very percussively at this point, but at a couple points he adds an accent by hitting two notes much harder.

I'm not suggesting that others are not hearing these things as distortion, but this is my take on it. I didn't notice before that it was Joe Harley who replied to 'Paul' on LJC that it was possible mistracking and that there is no compression on this or his other cuts.

So we are still left with that it could be specific pressing faults or some people only having mistracking. To confirm what my trackability is like, although it is not the be all and end all, I checked mine with the HiF News LP tracking bands. My setup just clears the +15db bands, but will not get anywhere near the +18db.

Anyone else want to give this a go? I'm going back to listen to some music properly

 

[RickyC6]

I think I have too much music to listen to, to do this!

 

[poco a poco]

Graham,
Thanks for your findings I just saw your post that you made while I was typing mine.

Yes I saw the SH post about soprano sax and was very amused.

We can't post clips on PFM and I am not really set up to record in any case. I have doubts about the value of these clips anyway. It will not be clear if the original or the re-recorded version were overloaded.

My Cadenza Bronze in my SME is in the second arm on my L-07D DD turntable. I have a Cadenza Mono in the L-07D's own arm, but I have not tried playing Passing Sips in mono.

I be interested in your overall comparative findings on the Cadenza Bronze. I nearly bought the Hana ML instead. I couldn't get a home trial and I am very familiar, like, Ortofon's. Previous was the Cadenza Blue so I decided to stick with them.

 

[poco a poco]

I'm playing the Tone Poet of Andrew's Black Fire now, but I am definitely not listening for any wobbly piano!!!

Edit:
WOW this sounds so good in both the music and sound quality when you just listen for pleasure!

 

[Graham H]

OK, just listened to Dubmart’s rather dull sounding sample over at Hoffman. This is supposed to be distortion-free by his reckoning, but to me the sax is exhibiting the same distortion (via Focal Clear headphones) as my version.

Looks like some people have a higher degree of immunity to distortion than others.

Take a listen and see what you think.

 

[poco a poco]

Graham,
I took a look at it over on SH. It goes to his Google Drive but then on two different I-Pads it gives me the message 'there is a problem with playing this audio file' and it does not play. I'll give it a go on a couple of Windows PC's later. I hardly ever do any headphone listening and only have a cheap pair, certainly not up to what you are using, so I'm not sure I will learn much from it.

I did hear some of what you were saying about his mouth piece and reed in places, but I did not hear it as distortion. I just put it down to his particular embouchure and reed when playing.

In my post above I did exclude the third possibility that my 74+ year old ears may not be up to the Job of detecting distortion. I'm happy enough and perhaps grateful to live with that, but it would be interesting to see a graph of those who do and don't hear it against age. Not here though we don't want to start an equivalent to wobblygate.

 

[Graham H]

In my post above I did exclude the third possibility that my 74+ year old ears may not be up to the Job of detecting distortion. I'm happy enough and perhaps grateful to live with that, but it would be interesting to see a graph of those who do and don't hear it against age. Not here though we don't want to start an equivalent to wobblygate.

Agreed. The only reason I mentioned the distortion was to decide whether or not to return my copy, and maybe help others who were thinking the same. At present I believe all copies display the fault, it’s not mistracking but some other form of distortion, and some notice it more than others. I’ll be keeping my copy.

In the meantime those enjoying Joe Farrell’s sax playing on Passing Ships may want to investigate The Ultimate by Elvin Jones - a personal favourite of mine of EJ’s BN titles that would make a cracking TP - although both Evolution and Poly-Currents would also be welcome.

 

[poco a poco]

I am starting in agree with you regard to it being mistracking except with regard to those say they are hearing throughout. If it was caused by mistracking then I would have thought that would be in the hot spots in Dizzy Reece or Woody Shaw's solo's where you would hear it especially on the first tracks on side one and side three, rather just in Farrell's sax solo as you do. When I have heard mistracking it does seem to have a particular sound quite different from recording mike overload distortion. I do hear overload distortion at times on other Van Gelder recordings if not on this and I did hear a bit of it on the Verve AS Ray Charles Genius +Soul, not I think a Van Gelder that I played immediately before having a good listen to Passing Ships.

Is there an Elivin Jones recording called Evolution? I only know the Grachan Moncur 111 recording that has Tony Williams on drums. I have a Music Matters 2x45rpm and it is fabulous. Because that is an MM it is unlikely to be a Tony Poet any time soon.

 

[Theo]

In the meantime those enjoying Joe Farrell’s sax playing on Passing Ships may want to investigate The Ultimate by Elvin Jones - a personal favourite of mine of EJ’s BN titles that would make a cracking TP - although both Evolution and Poly-Currents would also be welcome.

Did you mean Coalition?

Both Coalition and Poly-Currents are excellent. I have original US pressings of both: you can still pick up decent copies for relatively little money.

 

[Graham H]

Did you mean Coalition?

Both Coalition and Poly-Currents are excellent. I have original US pressings of both: you can still pick up decent copies for relatively little money.

Sorry chaps - I meant Coaltion, although GM’s Evolution is another favourite - the MM version sounds excellent.

I have decent enough copies of Coalition and Poly-Currents, but my Ultimate is a 75th, and although mastered and cut by Bernie Grundman - and sounding very punchy - it would be nice to hear the acoustic space opened up a bit with more natural dynamics.

 

[Tony L]

My replacements arrived from the Blue Note store, just as badly packaged and damaged as the first order, so that’s two copies of Tone Poem and OFU they have trashed. I’m going for a refund now. I don’t need OFU and I’ll just buy the CD of Tone Poem from Amazon at some point (it will be a digital recording).