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Tone Poet Blue Notes

Thanks for your reply. I have no problems with the rest of the LP other than Matrix. My earlier description was maybe a bit vague. I've had another listen. About 75 seconds into Matrix, the cymbals on the left are suddenly muted for a few seconds. It sounds like a dropout on the tape to me, most unnatural. I very much doubt it is a tracking issue as I never have problems with distortion. Very strange.

I'll give it another listen when I get the chance. It certainly wasn't obvious to me, but I wasn't then clear about what you were hearing and I was really listening for a change a little bit further on.
 
About 75 seconds into Matrix, the cymbals on the left are suddenly muted for a few seconds. It sounds like a dropout on the tape to me, most unnatural. I very much doubt it is a tracking issue as I never have problems with distortion. Very strange.

If it’s any help many Blue Note, Strata East etc.reissues mastered in analogue are full of tape dropouts. The worst I have being Sonny Rollins Newk’s Time on Music Matters, so many tape dropouts it almost spoils enjoyment of the music. Personally I find it annoying, but not strange. We are talking about analogue magnetised tape which has likely been used more than was ever intended. Analogue tape is a highly volatile medium that can suffer from numerous problems:

https://www.clir.org/pubs/reports/pub54/2what_wrong/

A particular analogue tape problem I find annoying is print through, evident as both pre and post echo. The recent reissue of Rendell/Carr’s Dusk Fire is full of it on some tracks to the point that I’m preferring and earlier CD remaster. But no one to my knowledge has mentioned this as a particular as a problem.
 
A particular analogue tape problem I find annoying is print through, evident as both pre and post echo. The recent reissue of Rendell/Carr’s Dusk Fire is full of it on some tracks to the point that I’m preferring and earlier CD remaster. But no one to my knowledge has mentioned this as a particular as a problem.

Graham I did mention this in one of my posts in the Rendall Carr thread (post 23) and considered it was on the master tape. I'm surprised therefore that it is not also apparent on the CD's. I'm not sure when these were first issued, but I thought still quite a bit later after the original 1965 LP releases and if that is the case it should show up unless digital processing removed it? Although I can clearly hear it I do not find it too much of a problem, perhaps I'm inured to it. I hear on on just about all old analogue masters. As you say above analogue tape has its problems, but for me these are still usually, but not always, preferable than having a digital recording.
 
Thanks and yes, understood. I probably didn't make myself too clear though. The listing is for a Blue Note Tone Poets copy but if you scroll through all the blurb as far as the "detail " section, that bit shows the label as being "Decca". Just a typo I'm imagining.....

I have quite often found that the label information posted on their pages by Amazon is at best confusing or totally wrong. It does sometimes make it difficult to ensure you have the correct version you want when there is more than one, especially if they are around the same price. Year of issue is usually a better bet.
 
Graham I did mention this in one of my posts in the Rendall Carr thread (post 23) and considered it was on the master tape. I'm surprised therefore that it is not also apparent on the CD's. I'm not sure when these were first issued, but I thought still quite a bit later after the original 1965 LP releases and if that is the case it should show up unless digital processing removed it? Although I can clearly hear it I do not find it too much of a problem, perhaps I'm inured to it. I hear on on just about all old analogue masters. As you say above analogue tape has its problems, but for me these are still usually, but not always, preferable than having a digital recording.

The print through will be on the master tape, and is evident on the Vocalion CD but to a lesser extent. By my calculation the CDs were released about 18 years ago, so the tapes were that bit fresher than for the recent LPs, assuming they were the same tapes. Apologies for missing your comments on this, but I’m a little underwhelmed by the recent Dusk Fire vinyl reissue and realise I’m probably in a minority on this one. Unlike the Tone Poets I’ve heard which are brilliant in every way, warts and all. Nothing is ever perfect.

My stance on digital and analogue is neutral; both can be stunning when done properly and by the right people, both can be dire. I have difficulty with practically every Blue Note CD or stream I’ve ever heard, Ron McMasters included, so when it comes to Blue Notes I find analogue mastering and vinyl win every time. But it’s not always the case with other labels and recordings.
 
Is your Dusk Fire from the recent third run? No bearing on the print through, but if they are still using the same stampers it may have some bearing on you being underwhelmed? As I noted in the post mentioned the matrix numbers seem confusing, but what is indicated in the way of stampers in the dead wax of your copy?
 
Was just listening to Dusk Fire (from the initial run of the box set) last night and thinking how good it sounded, but noticed the echo for the first time.
 
Was just listening to Dusk Fire (from the initial run of the box set) last night and thinking how good it sounded, but noticed the echo for the first time.

I bought all the albums separately and haven't noticed any pre-echo, but I bet I'll notice it straight away now.

What a cracking set of albums, so much care has gone into their production.
 
That looks more expensive than on Amazon. Interestingly their listing appears to also have the Amazon "Decca" typo....
 
Is your Dusk Fire from the recent third run? No bearing on the print through, but if they are still using the same stampers it may have some bearing on you being underwhelmed? As I noted in the post mentioned the matrix numbers seem confusing, but what is indicated in the way of stampers in the dead wax of your copy?

Mine is third pressing, side 1 174702E1/A and side 2 174702E2/AA1. I have a friend with the box set, so eventually I will compare. It’s ironic that I’m underwhelmed with Duskfire, as I’ve recently changed from Hana SL to Hana ML and am delighted and impressed with the ML, especially in terms of information and dynamic range. Maybe I was expecting too much from these reissues. I have a few original Landsdowne LPs and they certainly don’t sound lacklustre, far from it.

Anyhow, looking forward to collecting Mr Shing a Ling on Friday, and I’ve pre ordered Baby Face Willette for next month. It’s Saul Goodman......
 
I only have some of the 80th so far but have the Dexter Gordon of this series coming next week. Apart from a bit of Bob I've listened to nothing else since.....

Just to be clear, Dusk Fire is on of the 5 LPs by Don Rendell and Ian Carr on The Jazzman label, so nothing to do with Blue Note. Still well worth having though, the 60s originals go for bonkers money.
 
Ha yes of course, I should have taken more notice. I have been one click away from buying those too. I'm trying to reign myself in a bit....
 
Ha yes of course, I should have taken more notice. I have been one click away from buying those too. I'm trying to reign myself in a bit....

Resistance is futile <grin>. They are very, very, good - and are on the streaming services if you want to listen first.
 
Mine is third pressing, side 1 174702E1/A and side 2 174702E2/AA1. I have a friend with the box set, so eventually I will compare. It’s ironic that I’m underwhelmed with Duskfire, as I’ve recently changed from Hana SL to Hana ML and am delighted and impressed with the ML, especially in terms of information and dynamic range. Maybe I was expecting too much from these reissues. I have a few original Landsdowne LPs and they certainly don’t sound lacklustre, far from it.

The matrix numbers on my Dusk Fire which is from the second run, the first run sold individually after the box set, are exactly the same. The bit past the / should indicate the stamper A1 & AA1 And in this case should mean 1st stamper. I assume the box set matrix numbers will be also be the same. If so it would seem they have used the same metal work (stampers) for all runs. The box set was a run of 1,000 (with perhaps a few additional test pressings). I would have thought given the demand and to be economic the two following runs (third for Shades of Blue and Dusk Fire only) would also be 1,000 pressings each?

Usually the lower the matrix number and stamper the better, but with out other indicators, label differences, etc. It may not be a true indicator as sometimes they have been used out of sequence when, for instance pressings are made at different plants. In this case it is unlikely given the short runs.

It is generally thought that 1,000 to 1,500 (using 3 stage electroplating) is the maximum you can get from a stamper before quality audibly deteriorates and you need another 'mother'. The earlier in the run your pressing the better, but you can't tell from the matrix stamper number where within the run it was pressed - no.1 or no. 1,000. If the stampers are used in sequence an early pressing from the second set of stampers say no. 10 is then quite likely to be better than no. 1,000 from first stamper set. It is quite likely if 3,000 have been pressed from the same stamper then some deterioration may be apparent. A comparison with your friends copy should prove interesting.

The one on sound quality grounds only that I seemed to think is not quite as good is Shades of Blue, but not not due to the mastering, but the original recording. The one I think is best is 'Live', but perhaps that is because it takes me back 50 years to when I heard them. :)

I have a couple of Stan Tracey's on original Landsdowne pressing and they are very good, but the vinyl is not as anywhere near as quiet as these reissues,which are excellent.

I'm playing mine mainly with an Ortofon Cadenza Blue that is excellent at digging out the detail and dynamics, but I like what I have heard about the Hanna ML and I'm considering Buying the mono, but it may be a bit too compliant for the arm I would use it in.

Sorry all if this has taken the Tone Poet a bit off thread, but perhaps it maybe useful now that these are Also already seeing second and third runs for some issues.
 
Thanks for that. I will report back in the Rendell/Carr thread when I have made the comparison. Buying the Tone Poets I want as soon as they are released to hopefully guarantee first press. Same with 80th series. So far, so good.

I see Alan at Jazzhouse has a complete set of MM SRXs for £720. Would like to sell as job lot before he splits it on Monday.
 
Anyhow, looking forward to collecting Mr Shing a Ling on Friday, and I’ve pre ordered Baby Face Willette for next month. It’s Saul Goodman......

Graham, I await your findings on Mr Shing a Ling as I said before. I note there are mixed opinions on Steve Hoffman and in the original reviews. I have Baby Face Willette Face to Face and Dexter Gordon Clubhouse due this Friday or Saturday and Andrew Hill Blackfire & Kenny Burrell Introducing for supposedly 26th July.
 


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