advertisement


Tone Poet Blue Notes

poco a poco said:
...Back to original Blue Notes we need to further define the true original with regard to Van Gelder's intentions in comparisons. Prior to at I think 1967 the originals were all issued in mono first and the stereo's were issued later. The early ones much later. Although Van Gelder was recording to to two tracks he was to monitoring on just one speaker even when he did the first fold downs and pan potted the instruments to create a stereo spread and he certainly at least while at Hackensack still had a preference for mono. So perhaps we should only be comparing mono versions in many cases. ;)
Click to expand...

"The case notes on an early mono CD I have here state "The classic Blue Note albums which span the mid 1950s to the late 1960s were recorded directly on to two track analog tape. No multitrack recording was used and consequently no mixing was required. Therefore this CD was made by transferring the one step analog master to digital."
 
gavreid said:
"The case notes on an early mono CD I have here state "The classic Blue Note albums which span the mid 1950s to the late 1960s were recorded directly on to two track analog tape. No multitrack recording was used and consequently no mixing was required. Therefore this CD was made by transferring the one step analog master to digital."
Click to expand...
Gavreid, yes recorded to two track tape with some instruments on one track and some on the other. Then when he used this tape to cut the acetate for a so called 'fold down mix' he pan potted or left some instruments in the left channel and some in the right from the tape tracks. To get instruments in the centre you split equally to each channel and he could also alter the frequency balance or add reverb to add space or depth at this time if wanted or needed. Over the first few years he changed his mind on positioning instruments as at first both the drums and bass were in the right channel, but this caused tracking problems for the LP's and was not ideal in the mix so he then moved the bass into the centre utilising both channels, usually positioning the piano there as well if there was one. Drums usually remained on the right and the horns right or left or both depending on the total number of instruments. This is not really true Stereo as in Blunhiem recordings, but of course is still used today from multitrack tapes. He did make or others made later production master tapes of the fold downs so that if multiple pressing plants or some were to be pressed in other countries could be used if duplicate metal metal work was not being made or sent. These are of course one generation down. I believe he has stated did not like to do this as he was aware of at least a little impact on sound quality.
 
poco a poco said:
Gavreid, yes recorded to two track tape with some instruments on one track and some on the other. Then when he used this tape to cut the acetate for a so called 'fold down mix' he pan potted or left some instruments in the left channel and some in the right from the tape tracks. To get instruments in the centre you split equally to each channel and he could also alter the frequency balance or add reverb to add space or depth at this time if wanted or needed. Over the first few years he changed his mind on positioning instruments as at first both the drums and bass were in the right channel, but this caused tracking problems for the LP's and was not ideal in the mix so he then moved the bass into the centre utilising both channels, usually positioning the piano there as well if there was one. Drums usually remained on the right and the horns right or left or both depending on the total number of instruments. This is not really true Stereo as in Blunhiem recordings, but of course is still used today from multitrack tapes. He did make or others made later production master tapes of the fold downs so that if multiple pressing plants or some were to be pressed in other countries could be used if duplicate metal metal work was not being made or sent. These are of course one generation down. I believe he has stated did not like to do this as he was aware of at least a little impact on sound quality.
Click to expand...

Presumably the mono recordings were made by playing back both tracks simultaneously and simply re-recording onto a single track?
 
gavreid said:
Presumably the mono recordings were made by playing back both tracks simultaneously and simply re-recording onto a single track?
Click to expand...
No the acetate was cut from the two track tape with a mono cutting head and the groove is cut with no vertical compliance. Stereo records are cut at 45 degrees and have vertical and horizontal compliance information to give the two channels. A production tape can be made as you suggest if needed as I indicated previously and this is almost certainly the method used later when there are many more tracks on the original master.

For those looking for more, better, information on Van Gelder with regard to his Stereo and Mono methodology I highly recommend Richard Capless's excellent guide linked below that also gives the relative mono and stereo release dates where there are both versions.
https://dgmono.com/blue-note-mono-stereo-guide/
 
poco a poco said:
Here is a direct link to Richard Capless's other article on London Jazz Collector on how Van Gelder produced both mono and stereo versions using first single (full track for mono) and then two track tape for both versions.
https://londonjazzcollector.wordpre...cords-and-the-transition-from-mono-to-stereo/
Click to expand...

Thanks, that was fascinating. I was familiar with the Beatles for instance bouncing tape here there and everywhere but Van Gelder was clearly passionate about the fidelity and integrity of his process.
 
Just listening to One Flight Up. They've done a good job on this one. I think I still rate The Rajah as the best sounding of my TPs but this runs it very close.
 
hermit said:
During their sale, I bought and paid for Passing Ships on March 15th at the Bluenote UK store. I will not be happy if they have distributed copies to retailers but not fulfilled their orders from online customers who have pre-ordered and paid in advance. I have sent them an email enquiring into the current status of my order. I will be exceedingly unhappy if they have already sold out and I have to wait until they re-stock.
Click to expand...

I just received a very disappointing reply from the Blue Note store. See below. Needless to say I have cancelled my order and will receive a copy from Amazon tomorrow albeit at greater expense. Not happy at all.

Dear Paul

Thank you for your email.

Please accept my sincere apologies for the delay.

I am afraid we are still awaiting delivery of the item you have ordered.

I can confirm that we are chasing our supplier for any update as to when we can expect this to arrive although at this time we do not have an exact date.

As soon as stock arrives we will ship all orders and you will be sent an email confirmation. Should you no longer wish to wait, please let us know and we can cancel your order for you.

Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.



Many thanks,
Jack
Customer Services​
 
Is it me or is Passing Ships another quirky mix? Bass seems both woolly and very high in the mix, while drums and piano are often muffled. The version on Spotify is different but still odd: bass muffled but low.

Could well be me, both my hearing and my setup are all over the place at the moment.
 
I wasn’t knocked out by Passing Ships on first listen yesterday, though I suspect I just wasn’t in the right mood for it.
 
Seanm said:
Is it me or is Passing Ships another quirky mix? Bass seems both woolly and very high in the mix, while drums and piano are often muffled. The version on Spotify is different but still odd: bass muffled but low.

Could well be me, both my hearing and my setup are all over the place at the moment.
Click to expand...
No problem with the bass on it for me. In fact I was particularly impressed by Ron Carter's playing on this and the clarity of its sound in such a complex mix. It also seems very extended in the lower frequencies as well. Perhaps because of this it exciting a room mode with your speakers? My speakers have DSP in the bass that corrects pretty much all my room modes below 200hz.
 
poco a poco said:
No problem with the bass on it for me. In fact I was particularly impressed by Ron Carter's playing on this and the clarity of its sound in such a complex mix. It also seems very extended in the lower frequencies as well. Perhaps because of this it exciting a room mode with your speakers? My speakers have DSP in the bass that corrects pretty much all my room modes below 200hz.
Click to expand...
Thanks, that’s helpful.
 
Another thumbs up review of a Tone Poet, except for the use of colour photos, from the man who never used to like reissues only Blue Note originals from the around the period recorded.
https://londonjazzcollector.wordpre...ew-hill-passing-ships-1969-blue-note-tp-2021/

In the comments there is a complaint about distortion that I have seen elsewhere particularly with regard to Plantation Bag. No problems with my copy so it is either just on some copies or the dynamics causing mistracting with some cartridge set ups.
 
I've got a bit of distortion on Plantation Bag - it sounds like the levels were a fraction too high with the sound monetarily breaking up in 3-4 places - like the Tuba solo phrase 3/4 of the way through and a couple of the sax crescendos. I'm glad to hear its a problem others have detected - I thought my 12 month old cart was playing up the first time I played it. Its not a deal breaker and nothing to return the record for.

I'm really enjoying the record and really like Ron Carter's bass playing. In some ways it seems to be exploring similar territory to Bitches Brew but with acoustic instruments. I've really been introduced to Andrew Hill through these reissues - before them Id only heard Point of Departure. Smokestack, which I finally bought a few weeks ago, is going to become a regular and Passing Ships, while a very different record, is really hitting the spot.
 
Tony L said:
I suspect if you didn’t like Ron Carter’s bass playing you’d have a choice of about 25 jazz albums as he plays on everything else!
Click to expand...

True that :D. He somehow seems even funkier than usual on this one. I'm glad his playing up in the mix.
 
This thread has cost me a small fortune in the past few weeks - you start with just a couple and the urge to acquire takes over! Has anyone had problems with State of the Tenor vol 1- I've had 2 copies from Amazon, both with pitting on side 1. Have ordered another one as a last go before giving up, and have noticed the price keeps going down, it's now at 24.95, I wonder if the price is reducing in as many are being returned.
 
The Bish said:
This thread has cost me a small fortune in the past few weeks - you start with just a couple and the urge to acquire takes over! Has anyone had problems with State of the Tenor vol 1- I've had 2 copies from Amazon, both with pitting on side 1. Have ordered another one as a last go before giving up, and have noticed the price keeps going down, it's now at 24.95, I wonder if the price is reducing in as many are being returned.
Click to expand...
Got my copy of SOTT vol-1 when released and no problem with mine either. I have 38 of those released so far all but one were really excellent pressings. They are addictive :rolleyes: . The only one that had the slight problems had just few slightly loud clicks. I got that at a very good price from Amazon France and it was not worth the hassle of returning thre.

STOT Vol-1 was released in August last year and RTI did have some production problems then due to Covid. Definitely worth trying the third copy.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.


advertisement


Back
Top