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Tone Poet Blue Notes

Looking forward to the Gil Evans.

Amazon UK have now put the expected date for this to the 14th June @ £39.81. Amazon Fr that was much cheaper are still saying 14th May, but have pushed the price to 54.90 Euros and no price guarantee or group listing with Henderson and Donaldson issues.

Quite a few posts on Steve Hoffman lately about pressing faults with Contours, Henderson and Evans. My Contours had a few ticks (otherwise it sounds great), I should have probably returned it, but thought it would improve with a clean. This just showed there was a very small scratch that I didn't spot at first. It's not too bad, a few revolutions, so I'll keep it as I hear it's a hassel to deal with Amazon France from the UK for returns and would also be a long wait for a replacement as awaiting repressing. I hope this does not indicate that the QC at RTI is slipping with the pressure to increase output on the Tone Poets?
 
Amazon delivery for Gil Evans now suggested 18th June. Joe Henderson delivery 4th June. Lee Morgan - Cornbread is now available for preorder @ £37.79 with delivery quoted as 4th June as well. I have just added this to the other 2. June is going to be an even more expensive month than May as I have order the next 3 releases for Blue Note 80's as well. :(;)

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cornbread-VINYL-Lee-Morgan/dp/B07NRKM3H6/ref=sr_1_1?crid=183TIIRBD6RIC&keywords=cornbread+vinyl&qid=1558353500&s=gateway&sprefix=Cornbread+vinyl,aps,173&sr=8-1
 
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Henderson and Morgan ordered.

The actual delivery date tends to be better than the one quoted for Amazon pre-orders. I pre-ordered the first 80th anniversary releases and was informed that they'd be released on the Friday and delivered the middle of the following week. The actual delivery date then shifted to Saturday after they were released on the Friday.
 
Henderson and Morgan ordered.

The actual delivery date tends to be better than the one quoted for Amazon pre-orders. I pre-ordered the first 80th anniversary releases and was informed that they'd be released on the Friday and delivered the middle of the following week. The actual delivery date then shifted to Saturday after they were released on the Friday.

Agreed. I just added what Amazon quoted on the order. I expect they are careful to cover all delivery options. I have Prime and my last 80's actually arrived on the Friday release date.
 
My State of the Tenor arrived this morning. I have some very minor pressing flaws on Side 2, which is a shame, as the other Tone Poets have been perfect. It's just possible my cartridge is failing to track one or two moments, so I'll play it again before I decide to ask Amazon for a replacement.

I've yet to compare it with the cd, but it strikes me that whilst it does sound excellent, this copy hasn't quite redressed the issue I always had with the cd, which is that the saxophone is a little too far back in the mix. The overall sense of space and dynamics is very good, and it does come alive more at higher volume, but I still feel there must have been an issue with the way they micd the sax. It's certainly very different to the way Van Gelder recorded. Even though what Joe Harley and Kevin Grey have been doing with the remastering of the 60s Blue Notes is to release the music from the self-imposed limits of 60s mastering (upper bass and presence region boost), I think the Wayne Shorter and Chick Corea LPs (especially the former) achieved a near perfect balance between instrumental spotlighting and the sense of a dynamic ensemble. With State of the Tenor, their is not enough spotlighting on the horn for me. It's still a very good release though, and a great showcase for Ron Carter in particular.
 
From recent comments by Joe Harley, not only is the 2020 list in the final stages of completion but they are beginning to plan a third series for 2021. Good news, but I really do hope they dig a bit deeper into the catalogue.
 
I have just got around to playing my copy. Flat and quiet as previous releases. OK if I am hypercritical then I can just hear a couple of ticks on side two, but nothing I would return it for. As has been stated it is a digital recording and it is certainly dynamic. Elephantears (Andrew) if you are having problems with your cartridge tracking then side two 'Portrait' will certainly show it I would imagine?

With regard to the balance my problem lies not with Hendersons Sax, but with Ron Carter's Bass. I have never managed to get to the Village Vangard when I have visited New York, but I know the stage is very small. Joe Harley comments on this with regards to this recording on Steve Hoffman. On my system Henderson is not in my room like Dexter Gordon on the BN80 (or Van Gelder's usual treatment of soloists) but set back just behind the speakers. There is not much lateral seperation for the musicians, but proper for the stage size and I do get a good sense of the room reverberations around them and when the polite applause (very realalistically captured) cuts in it is spread across the width of my room beyond the speakers. It is like you at a table in the club sat about 12 foot from the stage. What spoils it for me is Ron Carter's Bass is too far forward in the mix even with regard to the small stage and the pickup on the Bass (that Graham has previously mentioned in this thread - "claustrophobic" is right) makes one or two notes dominate. You get plenty of the initial attack from the Bass, but little of the decay from the body. I find it worst on side one, especially the first two tracks. Side two seems better balanced overall to me. Perhaps these tracks are from a different date to those from side one?

I am trying not to blame a digital recording (it could be due to a number of things), I don't hear any obvious digital artifacts, but in comparison to the earlier issues what I am also missing is the sense of extended upper frequency 'air' around the cymbals. Plenty of detail, but not the 'unlimited' upwards extension. Compare 'Y Ya La Quiero' to one of the tracks on say 'Etcetera'.

So this one is a bit of a mixed bag for me. Some good playing from all though, so I'm not too disappointed, but perhaps I will get the CD or BN75 before I go for the 2020 release of Vol. 1?
 
On my system Henderson is not in my room like Dexter Gordon on the BN80 (or Van Gelder's usual treatment of soloists) but set back just behind the speakers. There is not much lateral seperation for the musicians,

Yes, that's precisely what I was trying to get at. The presence of Dexter Gordon on 'Doin' Alright' is just the right comparison, because that is so stunningly holographic. I meant to post about that on the other thread, but I've paused (for reasons I'll explain elsewhere). However saying this, I'm listening again to side 2 and finding it has much more presence, but again, this is achieved at fairly high volume.

I have only got one or two ticks also, so quite liveable with. I'll take the disc to a friend's to check it's not a tracking issue.

More later though; back to listening.
 
With regard to the balance my problem lies not with Hendersons Sax, but with Ron Carter's Bass.

I only have the on CD but when I first played it I thought it sounded like he was playing an electric bass - the sound was so flat and captured none of the resonance of a live double bass.

Im not normally tempted by audiophile reissues which always seem to charge to high a differential for limited gains on my kit but, having read the posts here and elsewhere I'm tempted to dip into this series. My favourite of the records from streaming are the Wayne Shorter and Sam Rivers. Is either a front runner in terms of the quality of sound?

Kevin
 
I only have the on CD but when I first played it I thought it sounded like he was playing an electric bass - the sound was so flat and captured none of the resonance of a live double bass.

Listening to the LP I thought it was an electric bass too. I've only had a chance to listen to it once so far.

For a single purchase I'd go for the Wayne Shorter.
 
I only have the on CD but when I first played it I thought it sounded like he was playing an electric bass - the sound was so flat and captured none of the resonance of a live double bass.
Kevin

Listening to the LP I thought it was an electric bass too. I've only had a chance to listen to it once so far.

Well he did play electric bass (a Fender on these two I believe, although he has also been reported as playing a Rickenbacker Bass on some albums) with Miles in the late 1960's notably on Filles de Kilimanjaro and Miles in the Sky, but apparently hated it.

He is more polite about electric bass playing here where he says he stuck with upright after this.

 
I thought I probably seemed a bit over critical in my post above about the Joe Henderson - 'The State of the Tenor' so I thought I'd revisit it, but to make it a bit more interesting and fun I thought would compare it to two other recordings made in the Village Vanguard with similar line ups, one much earlier and one very recent. Different producers and engineers on the recordings, but Kevin Gray did the Vinyl mastering on two of them.

I am not retracting what I said above with regard to the balance on TSOTT, but it is an excellent recording and pressing and I found I enjoyed it more on replaying. One observation that may be of interest to Andrew (Elephantears) is that if you listen in the 'near field' then Henderson's Sax seems much more up front, separated and present. I normally listen just outside an equilateral triangle. Speakers 7 feet apart and listening position 9 feet back. I tried listening at 6 foot away, because of the limited lateral spread of the musicians noted above. This not only increases the seperation, but Henderson, while still not quite in the room only seems about 4 feet away and dominates the mix a bit more.

So my first comparison was an obvious one as TSOTT cover makes references to it (as a sort of homage) - "Rollins looms in the backdrop of this particular recording project". Sonny Rollins - 'A Night at the Village Vanguard', recorded in 1957 by Rudy Van Gelder. Mine is a 1977 UK Mono (as Van Gelder originally intended) pressing that sounds excellent despite 40 years of ownership. How much better a 1957 US original would sound is hard to imagine. It might seem unfair to compare a Mono to the Stereo, but this recording energises my room and given the limited seperation on TSOTT it seems fair. The Vangard sounds the same, but as recorded by Van Gelder Rollins is in my room, not so holographically as Dexter Gordon on Do'in Alright (that is Stereo), but very much there. What is more remarkable is that even on a Mono there is depth seperation on Wilbur Ware's Bass and Elvin Jones Drums that are set back behind, but still with a great 'presence'. You can hear Ware doing a Keith Jarrett style voice over on most tracks. I think Van Gelder has boosted the high frequencies somewhat and the presence region a little. Very obvious on the applause in comparison to TSOTT. Not so extended in the Bass, although still good and a little smear on cymbals in comparison, but that could be 40 years of record wear!

Next up is the Cecile McLoren Salvant triple LP - 'Dreams and Daggers' a 2016 recording most of which is recorded in the Village Vangard. This is a Piano, Bass and Drums Trio fronted by Cecile on Vocals. A really excellent recording with the vinyl mastered by Kevin Gray and I think from the matrix stamps probably pressed at RTI. Anyway pretty much on a par with the Tone Poets with regard to mastering and pressing. The Vanguard tracks were engineered by Damone Whittemore and Tod Whitelock. It possibly is a digital recording, but if it is I have no complaints. Similar balanced and extended upper frequencies and weight and attack to the lower drums that you get with the Tone Poets. Another different approach here with regard to balance, while you again get the ambiance of the Vanguard this time the musicians are spread fully across the Stereo soundstage. Arum Diehl's Piano on the left and just pushing into my room, Paul Sikive's Bass centre back and Lawrence Leathers Drums to the right and back a bit. Cecile fronts all this centre stage in front of the Bass and again just in my room. The overall impression here is you are seated just in front of Cecile, especially as the dynamics on this recording are so good. One moment she seems to whispering in your ear and the next she and the Trio are nearly blasting you out of your seat.

So three totally different approaches to recording a similar line up in the same venue over a 60 year period, that each retain the particular atmosphere of the club, but otherwise sound totally different with regard to balance. I like them all, but if I was really pushed on the best for sound quality alone I think I would go with Dreams and Daggers. Although I would love to see the Tone Poet team do a reissue of the Rollins.

Hope this is of at least a little interest.
 
Great stuff, Jim: fascinating comparisons. I'll digest over the weekend and listen again with your thoughts in mind.
 
Great stuff, Jim: fascinating comparisons. I'll digest over the weekend and listen again with your thoughts in mind.

Andrew thanks for your comments. My room is not much different from the one you were using when I visited and I still have the GIK Bass traps I got from you in the corners of mine so your findings will be interesting. :)

I have just seen this comment posted on Monday on Steve Hoffman by Joe Harley re a request for a release of the Rollins, A Night at the Village Vanguard;
"I love that record and have the Classic edition of it in addition to my original. But..... there are highly audible issues with the way Elvin's cymbals were recorded. There's no way around that and not a thing that mastering can do to correct that distortion. And it is distortion on the master tape pure and simple. I have to take a pass on this much as I love the session and music."
So not record wear on my copy and maybe what I hear on the applause is overload distortion also. But there will be no Tone Poet issue that can improve the sound likely either.
 
Interesting thoughts, poco/Jim/Andrew et al. Agreed, Sonny Rollins at the VV sounds amazing, especially with a mono cartridge, not in any accepted hi fi sense as there are problems with distortions and balance, but just in terms of visceral presence and energy.

One of my desert island discs is the complete John Coltrane at the Village Vanguard. I’m in awe of how Van Gelder managed to capture the colossal, almost orchestral sound of the various line ups that appear on the set in such a compromised space. Imagine being there.....
 
I Posted this in the Blue Note 80 thread as a reply follow up, but more appropriate here.

I have just checked the 'supposedly' available from July 26th for delivery Tone Poets, Andrew Hill - Blackfire and Kenny Burrell - Introducing ..... and these are both available at guaranteed pre delivery prices of £30.42 each so a bit down from May and June Tone Poet guarantees. Similar price on Amazon France. It's impossible to figure out how Amazon's pricing algorithm works???! I particularly want both of these so will order them when I am back home.

Just managed to spend £250 on some SH Jazz good early pressings that I found at a shop while away visiting friends so I think I will have to reign in my spending a bit. Plenty to listen to already though.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Black-Fire-VINYL-Andrew-Hill/dp/B07RG2TC3D/ref=sr_1_1?crid=20PQZQXGSQIO7&keywords=andrew+hill+black+fire&qid=1560706561&s=gateway&sprefix=Andrew+Hill+,aps,186&sr=8-1
 
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Wow! I have just given my latest Tone Poet arrival, New Bottle Old Wine a spin, that came while I was away for a few days. This one is a sonic wonder. Probably the best in the series sound quality wise so far. To get myself in the mood I played Farewell Gill Evans and the Monday Night Orchestra Live at Sweet Basil first as I found a very nice mint first pressing of this while I was away. This is a pretty good sounding recording, but pales in comparison with NBOW. This one was recorded in a smaller space of course.

So what you first notice when NBOW is the recording space is enormous. You don't have the musicians in your room, but you get the sense of the recording space taking over the front part of your room and stretching way back beyond the front wall. A real sense of height too. The space sounds like a large studio rather than a Hall, dryer sounding in the lower octaves and more reverberant higher in frequencies. I think perhaps a little plate reverb added here and there especially on Cannonball Adderley's Sax, but you clearly hear the wall reflections as well. The remarkable thing is the sense of presence to all the instruments while retaining their sizes and variable clear layering in the large space.

The dynamics are outstanding, no sense of compression or distortion at all on the brass climaxes and you can still hear Paul Chambers bass underlining it all and Blakey's cymbals riding on top. There is a wonderful sense of 'relaxed naturalness' to this recording along with the wide dynamics.

As well as showing off the great arrangements by Evans this outing is a real showcase for Adderley who features throughout with some great solos.

This is probably the best sounding recording, mastering and pressing of a 'big band' I have heard. I can't think of anything I have that is better? As we have come to expect with these another totally, flat a quiet pressing.
 
Tempting, so tempting.

Duke Ellington’s Blues In Orbit fits some of your sonic description, and it’s a great joy too, an unalloyed pleasure. The title track is sublime cool.
 


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