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Tone Poet Blue Notes

Crikey: you read the diatribe on Hoffmann's forum and you'd think that half these records were slurred beyond reasonable enjoyment. Does anyone here feel the same?

Yes, I do. There was someone recently on there saying that the Andrew Hill was totally ruined by the pitch issues. There's no point in responding to someone who thinks that.
 
If you read back in this thread you will see others opinions on this and see Stunsworth was one of the people who tried to talk some sense over there (good on him), but he was shouted down by the trolls as are others. More and more of the people talking sense have now bailed out of that thread.
 
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I also think there are a few characters over at Hoffman who think their superior listening and fault detecting skills (and I use that those words with a healthy dose of sarcasm) could lead them to an invitation to sit in on future mastering sessions with Gray and co. One poster has more than hinted he wouldn’t be satisfied with any explanations regarding Black Fire until he has heard the master on Gray’s rig for himself. Dream on......

I think the entire debacle is a great shame, doing more harm than good. 60 year old tapes are usually beyond reconstitution, such as fixing dropouts and pitch, without the aid of digital tools. The perpetrators just don’t seem to be able to gain any sense of perspective and proportion. Few engineers or label directors will ever want to take on another project like this if this is the likely outcome. I really do hope the series continues to sell well, I haven’t finished collecting yet! - although there will certainly be none of the other Andrew Hill titles I was hoping for.
 
The sensible posters on this thread who have given up on it have now condsiered that the only way out is to start seperate threads on the recent issues:
Hustlin:
https://www.forums.stevehoffman.tv/...stlin-tone-poet-lp-musical-discussion.878102/
Chant:
https://www.forums.stevehoffman.tv/...usical-discussion.877535/page-3#post-22078707

Let's hope the the sales of the Tone Poets, that had exceded all expectations up to this point, do continue to do well. I was hoping the good sales would encourage similar high quality AAA reissues from the original masters by other labels like Impulse (ok trouble with the Fire losses with some here), Prestige and Atlantic and even on the British labels like the recent Gearbox / Decca Tubby Hayes releases.

The loss of the proposed Andrew Hill's Tone Poets is a real disappointment. I hope there is not a knock on effect to Smokestack' on the BN80's.
 
[QUOTE=" (ok trouble with the Fire losses with some here)
Universal still use " mastered from the original tapes & 180g audiophile vinyl " even if the master was burned over a decade ago
 
I was away for much of the summer so only recently caught up with Tone Poets. I've really enjoyed the Andrew Hill. I'm an eternal beginner/noodling type saxophonist myself so most of the times I put it on I'm trying to play along with Joe Henderson, or harmonise in some way that makes sense to me but must be torture for my neighbours. As such I've not been aware of any minor tape glitches etc. I really like the balance they've achieved.

I've been more critical with 'Glamoured', which I got on the Dodax offer. Musically, I find it hard to get past the 'come to the hi-fi show' production. Also I was having issues with sibilance, and that caused me a minor system crisis. After some investigation I resolved a system issue that was exacerbating what is already a tendency on certain tracks, presumably due to the excessively close mic technique used to get that rich and immersive diva sound ('Sleight of Time' was the main offender). Hopefully I'll get past this, and the Sting issue mentioned up thread, and get some pleasure out of this.

The one issue I have with the Tone Poet releases that I do want to moan about is the spindle holes, which are frequently too big, as if they have been double hole punched. This is really poor. It means you can easily get a couple of mm off centre, and the tracking distortion that causes is going to be the ruin of the best set ups.
 
The loss of the proposed Andrew Hill's Tone Poets is a real disappointment. I hope there is not a knock on effect to Smokestack' on the BN80's.

I wonder if that's really the case, I do think the posters on Steve Hoffman's site sometimes overstate their importance. Would Blue Note really change their release schedule because of posts on a relatively obscure internet forum?
 
I wonder if that's really the case, I do think the posters on Steve Hoffman's site sometimes overstate their importance. Would Blue Note really change their release schedule because of posts on a relatively obscure internet forum?

According to one of Joe Harley's last posts on the subject, an Andrew Hill title destined for next year's TP series has been cancelled. I think it's interesting that people are hearing 'tape warble' on a pianist that could be described as 'atonal', but seem deaf to similar issues on LPs by pianists such as Horace Silver et al. Reading between the lines I think Joe Harley has had similar thoughts. I'll bet that many people who have issues with Black Fire don't actually like Andrew Hill's music or playing too much, it just happens to be an AAA Tone Poet/part of the series/etc so they invest.

PS - In this instance the Hoffman forum isn't remotely obscure; the point is Joe Harley and the team really were listening to and engaging with enthusiastic consumers, and now they aren't. Our loss.
 
The trouble with the Hoffmann forum is that there are a few knowledgeable posters, and you do get these nice little cameos from people like Joe Harley, but more than half the posts are just pointless filler; 'I've got my copy of X on the way now', followed by 'I'm just unwrapping my copy of x, hope to listen soon', followed by 'I was at work today so didn't get chance to listen..' etc. And you end up with a 396 page thread with 7 relevant posts.
 
According to one of Joe Harley's last posts on the subject, an Andrew Hill title destined for next year's TP series has been cancelled. I think it's interesting that people are hearing 'tape warble' on a pianist that could be described as 'atonal', but seem deaf to similar issues on LPs by pianists such as Horace Silver et al. Reading between the lines I think Joe Harley has had similar thoughts. I'll bet that many people who have issues with Black Fire don't actually like Andrew Hill's music or playing too much, it just happens to be an AAA Tone Poet/part of the series/etc so they invest.

PS - In this instance the Hoffman forum isn't remotely obscure; the point is Joe Harley and the team really were listening to and engaging with enthusiastic consumers, and now they aren't. Our loss.

Yes Joe Harley said this direct and in written correspondence with a Gabe Waters on the forum who he is friends with so it shows how detrimental an out of control thread on a forum can be. We are all loosing out here.

Graham is correct, Various issues with piano are apparent on many Blue Note recordings and are not restricted to the time frame of the Tone Poets as seems to be suggested in that thread. I was having a bit of a Donald Byrd day yesterday following getting and playing 'Chant' and one I played was Byrd in Hand. I certainly wasn't listening out for it, but Walter Davis Jrn.'s piano definitely has tuning problems at times. Recorded in 1959 and my copy is a BST pressing dating from 1985. On balance did it spoil the music for me - No of course not.
 
I've been more critical with 'Glamoured', which I got on the Dodax offer. Musically, I find it hard to get past the 'come to the hi-fi show' production. Also I was having issues with sibilance, and that caused me a minor system crisis. After some investigation I resolved a system issue that was exacerbating what is already a tendency on certain tracks, presumably due to the excessively close mic technique used to get that rich and immersive diva sound ('Sleight of Time' was the main offender). Hopefully I'll get past this, and the Sting issue mentioned up thread, and get some pleasure out of this.

The one issue I have with the Tone Poet releases that I do want to moan about is the spindle holes, which are frequently too big, as if they have been double hole punched. This is really poor. It means you can easily get a couple of mm off centre, and the tracking distortion that causes is going to be the ruin of the best set ups.

Yes, sibilance is a bit of a problem with Glamoured and has been mentioned back in this thread. It's just about acceptable to me on my copy, but if your cartridge is not a great tracker at high frequencies then the problem could be exaggerated. I agree probably due to the very close mic. I did like the sound quality on first play, but now tend to also agree that it's a bit 'chromium plated' and prevents you engaging properly with her songs. Probably the same reason why I don't play the CD's I have by her very often.

I don't think I have had any loose spindle holes. I had a couple that were slightly tight. Perhaps minor differences in turntable spindle diameter?
 
I may be being a bit ill informed and out of date here, but do a handful of old men chuntering and foaming in front of their laptops really lead to a vinyl release being cancelled?

Is Hoffman's forum that influential? Are people that thin skinned? Can comments on a forum kill a programme? I can see how a consistent set of bad reviews across a range of media may do that, but a forum? These reissues do seem to have been very well received elsewhere.

I dip into Hoffman now and again but tend to shut it down as it often seems to be as much a platform for middle aged men with limited interpersonal skills and obsessive personal agendas who see the internet as a platform for sharing them as a place to get see some informed discussions and views on a subject.

FWIW Black Fire is my favourite, and most played, of the Blue Notes Tone Poets of 80's that I've tried so far but I may be one of those odd people who listens to the music not the recording.

This adds to my growing evidence base that the world was a better place twenty years ago...

blabber and smoke indeed....



Kevin
 
I
I may be being a bit ill informed and out of date here, but do a handful of old men chuntering and foaming in front of their laptops really lead to a vinyl release being cancelled?

Is Hoffman's forum that influential? Are people that thin skinned? Can comments on a forum kill a programme? I can see how a consistent set of bad reviews across a range of media may do that, but a forum? These reissues do seem to have been very well received elsewhere.
Kevin

Kevin,
I'm not sure that the Hoffman is that influential overall on record sales, but there are probably additional factors here. The Tone Poets are being aimed at 'Audiophiles' and at a premium price for an LP and to a group where sound quality is a big part of the package and people rightly or wrongly obsess over 'the best pressing' as much or more than the music. I think Hoffman and similar sites do have some influence here.

I imagine Don Was and Joe Harley had many difficulties getting these quality driven releases up and running with Universal's 'suits' in the first place. Major record labels are very profit driven and risk adverse so are easily deterred from releasing material if they feel sales will be poor or profits small. That's why we see so many Beatles and similar big selling artists reissued repeatedly.

Andrew Hill has never been a big seller for Blue Note unfortunately, which is a great shame. (A VG+ First pressing of 1968's 'Andrew', one of the proposed, can still be found for under £50). If it had been one of their bigger sellers then it may have still gone ahead despite the diatribe by some on Hoffman.

Black Fire along with Contours is pretty much my favourite of this Tone Poet series as well.
 
I may be being a bit ill informed and out of date here, but do a handful of old men chuntering and foaming in front of their laptops really lead to a vinyl release being cancelled?

Is Hoffman's forum that influential? Are people that thin skinned? Can comments on a forum kill a programme? I can see how a consistent set of bad reviews across a range of media may do that, but a forum? These reissues do seem to have been very well received elsewhere. Kevin

Kevin - all your questions could be faithfully answered by ploughing through the entire thread, except you won't be able to because yesterday about 100 pages or more (pages, not posts) were deleted by a moderator after closing the thread for 12 hours, with at least one character being suspended. In the relatively small world of Tone Poet and Music Matters reissues (pressed only in the low thousands I believe) the Hoffman forum can be influential. Or so it would seem. It will be interesting to see if Joe Harley et al reappear on the thread - the only reason I was casually following it in the first instance - informed opinion. A rare beast.

Anyhow, before we have our own Black Fire Hoffmangate - let's get back to the music. I agree with you comments on Black Fire, an essential record.
 
Kevin - all your questions could be faithfully answered by ploughing through the entire thread, except you won't be able to because yesterday about 100 pages or more (pages, not posts) were deleted by a moderator after closing the thread for 12 hours, with at least one character being suspended.

Well that's a (good) surprise Graham. I didn't realise as I had given up looking the thread for a few days as Black Fire Gate was still raging. Just seen my saved page number to go back to had dropped by over a 100. Yes let's hope Joe Harley thinks it's worth returning now. :)
 
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Black Fire along with Contours is pretty much my favourite of this Tone Poet series as well.

On the back of this I've been revisiting Sam Rivers - I picked up a BN 75 copy of Fuchsia Song Song yesterday - what a wonderful record. What else would people recommend as essential Rivers either as leader or sideman?

Kevin
 
On the back of this I've been revisiting Sam Rivers - I picked up a BN 75 copy of Fuchsia Song Song yesterday - what a wonderful record. What else would people recommend as essential Rivers either as leader or sideman? Kevin

His other early BN session, A New Conception, is worth hearing. More ballads and not as exciting as Contours or FSS, but some great playing and still in his post bop phase (with possibly the most unusual BN cover art from this period). I'd also recommend Larry Young's Into Something, as long as you like Hammond organs. It's also worth hearing how Rivers doesn't quite fit with Miles Davis (pre Wayne Shorter) on Live in Tokyo. Some say Miles didn't leave the stage whilst Rivers was soloing not in deference to the Japanese audience, but to keep a disciplined watch on Rivers. The two apparently didn't see eye to eye, evident in the music I think.

After that his later BNs and Impulse titles move into the realms of free jazz, all worth hearing. Conference of the Birds (Dave Holland ECM) with Anthony Braxton on board remains a favourite, not a typical ECM record. Rivers' loft sessions and Studio RivBea in the 70s are documented in Val Wilmer's As Serious As Your Life, recently republished and a recommended read to anyone remotely interested in jazz history. I also like a late 70s album called Waves, which articulates Rivers diversity and arrangement skills.

Here's an interesting obituary/article on Sam:

what-i-learned-from-sam-rivers
 


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