advertisement


Tone Poet Blue Notes

Just on my second listen of the Kenny Burrell and, to me at least, what a wonderful thing it is too. The Andrew Hill will take me another listen or two to get into it as, again to me at least being new to all this, it's a more difficult listen not having more "mainstream" rhythms. Would that be a reasonable comment or am I that "jazz naive" to not even get that right?

Keep with it. Andrew Hill is possibly my favourite artists/composer on Blue Note. His compositions are exemplary and individual. But you’re right, not a blowing session in sight.
 
Thanks for the link, appreciated. However, the number of new doors that keep opening is mind blowing, half the time I don't know where to turn next but it's all good. I might have said before but apart from a bit of Bob Dylan pretty much my entire listening has been jazz for the last month or two. To say I have been converted, hooked or whatever is an understatement beyond belief. The fact there is just so much material to listen to is fascinating, I have become obsessed I don't mind admitting.....
 
Thanks for the link, appreciated. However, the number of new doors that keep opening is mind blowing, half the time I don't know where to turn next but it's all good. I might have said before but apart from a bit of Bob Dylan pretty much my entire listening has been jazz for the last month or two. To say I have been converted, hooked or whatever is an understatement beyond belief. The fact there is just so much material to listen to is fascinating, I have become obsessed I don't mind admitting.....

Well with all these welcome new reissues that are coming thick and fast I have not listened to much else either.
After you get accustomed to Andrew Hill you might want to move on to Cecil Taylor. Very prolific so plenty of stuff out there, but on Blue Note there is 'Unit Structures' and 'Conquistador'. Unfortunately nothing planned as far as I know for Tone Poet or BN80 reissue, but you can still find an early pressing of either fairly cheaply and I also have the DeAgostini Jazz 33 of 'Conquistador' that is pretty good.
 
Just on my second listen of the Kenny Burrell and, to me at least, what a wonderful thing it is too. The Andrew Hill will take me another listen or two to get into it as, again to me at least being new to all this, it's a more difficult listen not having more "mainstream" rhythms. Would that be a reasonable comment or am I that "jazz naive" to not even get that right?

The Kenny Burrell album is really accessible and a great record. You should also listen to Midnight Blue, a personal favourite
 
I have quite a fair bit of Cecil Taylor including the BN ones you mentioned but I've always struggled with them so they don't get played much. Perhaps it's time to try again. I have no problems with Hill or Ornette but I don't know what it is with C. Taylor...

Well with all these welcome new reissues that are coming thick and fast I have not listened to much else either.
After you get accustomed to Andrew Hill you might want to move on to Cecil Taylor. Very prolific so plenty of stuff out there, but on Blue Note there is 'Unit Structures' and 'Conquistador'. Unfortunately nothing planned as far as I know for Tone Poet or BN80 reissue, but you can still find an early pressing of either fairly cheaply and I also have the DeAgostini Jazz 33 of 'Conquistador' that is pretty good.
 
I've got the Andrew Hill and Kenny Burrell in the basket ready for payday.

I keep coming back to the Morgan and Gordon records on Quboz and, while tempted to get them for the quality of the edition, am not really grabbed by the music. Am I missing anything here? Would people buy them if they were standard edition?

Kevin
 
I keep coming back to the Morgan and Gordon records on Quboz and, while tempted to get them for the quality of the edition, am not really grabbed by the music. Am I missing anything here? Would people buy them if they were standard edition?
Kevin

I have quite a lot of the output by both in various versions, some in more than one pressing or even on the dreaded silver disc. On Quboz try 'Go' or 'Our Man in Paris' for Dexter Gordon and 'The Sidewinder', 'The Gigolo' & 'Indeed' for Lee Morgan and see if you like these more. These were probably amongst their most popular albums when issued and they are good.

It is great to have the music in probably the best sound quality possible with the Tone Poets & BN80's but I wouldn't let it determine what I listen to. I have plenty of stuff poorly recorded and / or in poor pressings, but it is the only way I could get it or afford it.
 
I keep coming back to the Morgan and Gordon records on Quboz and, while tempted to get them for the quality of the edition, am not really grabbed by the music. Am I missing anything here? Would people buy them if they were standard edition?

Kevin

I won’t be buying those two, the music doesn’t do anything for me either. I’m sure there will be plenty of enticing Tone Poet titles over the coming years, enough to keep my credit card busy. Hopefully Blue Note will also continue to release BN80 quality titles in the future, at least whilst there is significant interest and Kevin Gray et al can meet demand.
 
  • Like
Reactions: kjb
I have quite a lot of the output by both in various versions, some in more than one pressing or even on the dreaded silver disc. On Quboz try 'Go' or 'Our Man in Paris' for Dexter Gordon and 'The Sidewinder', 'The Gigolo' & 'Indeed' for Lee Morgan and see if you like these more. These were probably amongst their most popular albums when issued and they are good.

It is great to have the music in probably the best sound quality possible with the Tone Poets & BN80's but I wouldn't let it determine what I listen to. I have plenty of stuff poorly recorded and / or in poor pressings, but it is the only way I could get it or afford it.

I've picked up all of the records you mention on CD in some form or other, usually in some 3 for £10 deal. I quite like them, or lack specific tracks, but don't really love them as records. My faves are Doin' Alright and Search for the New Land, both are which are, for me, miles better than the ones selected for Tone Poets. From following some of the discussion on the Hoffman thread you or Graham H flagged up, it seems one of the criteria is identifying records that haven't been remastered via lease by other labels which does mean trawling the back catalogue and maybe identifying records that are interesting rather than great.

I won’t be buying those two, the music doesn’t do anything for me either. I’m sure there will be plenty of enticing Tone Poet titles over the coming years, enough to keep my credit card busy. Hopefully Blue Note will also continue to release BN80 quality titles in the future, at least whilst there is significant interest and Kevin Gray et al can meet demand.

Absolutely: the sheer quality of the Tone Poet and BN80 ( and the previous BN75) editions does call to me even for releases which aren't top drawer or I've already got in other formats.

As an aside - I've always wondered why pianos sound so average on classic period Blue Note recordings. It interesting to compare them to Riverside recordings or classical piano recordings from the same time where the sound of the instrument is often captured far more effectively. Blue Note seems to capture the fibre and tone of horns and brass, guitars and organs, bass and, more often than not, drums but be far less successful with piano. Has anyone read anything that explains or explores that?

Kevin
 
I've picked up all of the records you mention on CD in some form or other, usually in some 3 for £10 deal. I quite like them, or lack specific tracks, but don't really love them as records. My faves are Doin' Alright and Search for the New Land, both are which are, for me, miles better than the ones selected for Tone Poets. From following some of the discussion on the Hoffman thread you or Graham H flagged up, it seems one of the criteria is identifying records that haven't been remastered via lease by other labels which does mean trawling the back catalogue and maybe identifying records that are interesting rather than great.



Absolutely: the sheer quality of the Tone Poet and BN80 ( and the previous BN75) editions does call to me even for releases which aren't top drawer or I've already got in other formats.

Kevin
Yes the the criteria, at least for the Tone Poets, was not to release anything that had previously been released on Music Matters, understandable as Joe Harley is involved with this label, or other audiophile labels such as Analog Productions. Although I get this it's a pity as in the UK as these are so much more expensive to import here and I would like some of them in this quality of mastering and pressing. The overall thinking for both seems to be to at least try to explore and reissue some of the lesser known parts of the Blue Note catalogue is certainly appreciated and I hope they take onboard some of the suggestions being made on SH for the future.

I think the sheer quality of the Tone Poets has dragged me in a bit as well. I had intended to pass on at least 2 or 3, but have end up with all 12 released so far. Persuaded by people here in some cases. ;) With the BN80's I have ended up with 8 out of 9 so far and I had intended to pass on more of these. Ultimately for all of us there are going to be something's that not going to 'gel' and won't get played much. It's good to have the range of what you might like pushed by others though especially at my age, as here or by the British Jazz Recommendations thread, even if finally you don't 'feel it'.

I don't do streaming, but how does Qubos sound re. Some of those you mention compared to the CD's some of which I have also and to me sound pretty poor even in comparison to the BN75's that in nearly all cases were from a digital source.
 
As an aside - I've always wondered why pianos sound so average on classic period Blue Note recordings. It interesting to compare them to Riverside recordings or classical piano recordings from the same time where the sound of the instrument is often captured far more effectively. Blue Note seems to capture the fibre and tone of horns and brass, guitars and organs, bass and, more often than not, drums but be far less successful with piano. Has anyone read anything that explains or explores that?

Kevin

Again, I’d agree with you observations. I think bass is a bit low in the mix on quite a few session, (Contours for example), and often piano has a shut in slightly muted sound, like the lid is down. Others have commented on this, but I don’t know of any particular investigation or conclusion. It could be that it wasn’t such a great sounding piano.

To my ears Van Gelder was great at capturing the energy and spontaneity of a session, especially drums, even though the sound balance and tonality could often be a bit wayward in comparison to someone like Teo Macero. But then we are talking about completely different scenarios and aesthetics.
 
Y

I don't do streaming, but how does Qubos sound re. Some of those you mention compared to the CD's some of which I have also and to me sound pretty poor even in comparison to the BN75's that in nearly all cases were from a digital source.

tbh I only use Qobuz via Sonos so it's not for top end sound quality although I have got a Connect playing ( DAC-less) through my main system.

I bought it as a filter - an alternative way of listening to stuff that piqued my interest rather than buying everything I wanted to listen to. I now have a "5 plays on Qobuz" rule before buying to check the music is going to engage me over time and, more frequently, use it to play back catalogue stuff that I never got round to buying or didn't like enough to buy - like Weather Report, for example. Overall its saved me some money and increased the quality ratio of stuff I do then buy.

Kevin
 
Again, I’d agree with you observations. I think bass is a bit low in the mix on quite a few session, (Contours for example), and often piano has a shut in slightly muted sound, like the lid is down. Others have commented on this, but I don’t know of any particular investigation or conclusion. It could be that it wasn’t such a great sounding piano.

To my ears Van Gelder was great at capturing the energy and spontaneity of a session, especially drums, even though the sound balance and tonality could often be a bit wayward in comparison to someone like Teo Macero. But then we are talking about completely different scenarios and aesthetics.

I think it is all down to Van Gelder's recorded preferences. I have commented on it a few times on these releases and I think the excellent mastering and pressing quality of these issues that were meant to reproduce as far as possible what was on the mastertape hi-light more of Van Gelder's recording methods and preferences. Since commenting here I have seen many others have commented on his piano sound even back to the original releases.

Clearly as you say he loves capturing the energy of a session and close mikes to spotlight Reeds & Brass soloists to do this. He is also excellent with drums where he gets both the weight and dynamics of the kit, and I have never heard it better than on these reissues, as well as the delicacy and 'air' around brushed cymbals. With piano though in most cases I get the feeling he Is just has one mike above the keyboard and not much under the lid. Could be the lid is down? You then don't get much of the body (weight and size of the instrument) or its decay. Plus for some reason he keeps the piano a bit down in the mix. My conclusion was he doesn't like piano players. :D

It seems though when the Piano players are also the leader on the session they usually get much better, if not perfect treatment. Perhaps Alfred Lion or the leader were a bit more insistent then. What I have never done and might be interesting is to directly compare the piano sound when he recorded at his parents home in Hackensack to the later Engelwood recordings to see if this has any bearing one way or the other?

Edit: I have just remberbered this post on London Jazz Collector about Van Gelder's recording methods that has had input by Kevin Gray:
https://londonjazzcollector.wordpre...cords-and-the-transition-from-mono-to-stereo/
Nothing specific about his recording of piano, but the move from mono to stereo and change of recording studio may have a bearing.

I have always thought Van Gelder's recordings were very much left right with very little centre fill and quiet often have preferred the mono even when a stereo was available. Even when just recording mono he had already moved bass and piano to the centre for disk cutting reasons and this became essential for Stereo. Another reason for level keeping them down in the mix, because of the amount of groove space their frequencies take up. I think Kevin Gray has said elsewhere with regard to the Tone Poets that one thing they were able to do much was to have a better bass level due to better cutting techniques now available, but they did not alter Rudy's instrumental balance.

Also note that when he moved to Stereo he was still monitoring in mono possibly even when he had Stereo playback at Englewood until 1962. The piano and bass now still in the middle. Along with piano I tend to think Van Gelder's Bass also tends to be weak unless he brings it up in the mix on a solo, sometimes very obviously. Remember Rudy mixed live to the tape so he had little ability to change the balance later. I think perhaps monitoring them in mono when recording makes them seem more forward in the mix than in the final Stereo release.

OK a lot of speculation on my part. I just need a very good Mono and Stereo pressing of the same release to investigate further. :rolleyes: :) I have a couple where I have both including Blue Train, but with big differences in the pressing and mastering quality. :(
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: kjb
The Kenny Burrell album is really accessible and a great record. You should also listen to Midnight Blue, a personal favourite

Just listening to this and now recall I have listened before. It's another one now on my list, I assume the "Decca" one at £30 on Amazon is the one to go for versus the £18 Elemental one??
 
Just listening to this and now recall I have listened before. It's another one now on my list, I assume the "Decca" one at £30 on Amazon is the one to go for versus the £18 Elemental one??

The Decca is the Blue Note 75 2014 reissue and I have this and it is quite good, but not Tone Poet standard and it is from a digital 'mastertape'. There is some debate about whether Elemental reissues are copyright rip offs or are licensed.

The main problem with BN75's is what pressing you get. Those from United in the states are usually terrible, those from Optimal in Germany are much better. In the U.K. you can't be sure of which you will get. I have though found if you order from the Amazon market place from a Swiss or German supplier you have a better, but not definite chance of getting an Optimal.

These BN75's must be running out because this is about double what I paid in 2015 and there were then more European suppliers? There is perhaps a danger that these are all now coming from United. The Coseon-de one on Amazon is in Germany and with postage a couple of pounds cheaper, but will take longer to arrive.

You could of course go for the excellent Music Matters issue. Now at $100 plus shipping and customs. :eek:;)
 
Thanks for that, taken a punt on the 75th on Amazon so I'll see what it is when it gets here. The beauty of Amazon is their easy returns if it's not right....
 
I think it is all down to Van Gelder's recorded preferences. I have commented on it a few times on these releases and I think the excellent mastering and pressing quality of these issues that were meant to reproduce as far as possible what was on the mastertape hi-light more of Van Gelder's recording methods and preferences. Since commenting here I have seen many others have commented on his piano sound even back to the original releases.

Again, I’d agree with you observations. I think bass is a bit low in the mix on quite a few session, (Contours for example), and often piano has a shut in slightly muted sound, like the lid is down. Others have commented on this, but I don’t know of any particular investigation or conclusion. It could be that it wasn’t such a great sounding piano.

To my ears Van Gelder was great at capturing the energy and spontaneity of a session, especially drums, even though the sound balance and tonality could often be a bit wayward in comparison to someone like Teo Macero. But then we are talking about completely different scenarios and aesthetics.


After a bit of looking around online I found this thread on Steve Hoffman which started in 2014 but has been reopened recently.

https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/van-gelders-piano-sound.342385/

Some interesting and seemingly very well informed reflections on RVGs recording technique. They have some extraordinarily informed contributors - including Tony L!


Kevin
 
After a bit of looking around online I found this thread on Steve Hoffman which started in 2014 but has been reopened recently.

https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/van-gelders-piano-sound.342385/

Some interesting and seemingly very well informed reflections on RVGs recording technique. They have some extraordinarily informed contributors - including Tony L!


Kevin

Thanks I had not seen this. Some of it seems to agree with my reasoning above. Two mikes on the piano though? Not very obvious, but then it shouldn't be, wrapped in chamois cloth! I'll have to have another very careful listen. o_O I have a lot of classical recordings, especially solo where the piano sound is excellent. The Keith Jarrett records on ECM mentioned usually, but not always, sound good.

I can remember a couple of live venues, in particular the Woolwich Tramshed where with Jazz quartets or bigger groups you could hardly ever hear the piano. So perhaps Rudy is right.
 


advertisement


Back
Top