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Tone Poet Blue Notes

I had been browsing the FW Rare Jazz Collector blog since the early days. He collects originals only, many of them in mint condition. I am always amazed at what he buys, but also appalled at the thought of the hundreds or thousands of $ he must need to pay for these items. At this price point, it is no longer about the music any more. It's about collecting rare artifacts, works of art. Not unlike collecting rare 1st editions of books. You don't buy them for the pleasure of reading the material itself...it's for something else entirely.

It's not something that I can entirely subscribe to.
 
I had been browsing the FW Rare Jazz Collector blog since the early days. He collects originals only, many of them in mint condition. I am always amazed at what he buys, but also appalled at the thought of the hundreds or thousands of $ he must need to pay for these items. At this price point, it is no longer about the music any more. It's about collecting rare artifacts, works of art. Not unlike collecting rare 1st editions of books. You don't buy them for the pleasure of reading the material itself...it's for something else entirely.

It's not something that I can entirely subscribe to.

IKWYM - I'm trying to strike a balance between wanting to hear the music and wanting to have a decent pressing. I'm now trying to stop myself coughing up for a vinyl remaster/repress when I've a perfectly decent CD version on the shelf - Ptah being a case in point.

The Swedes have a concept of Lagom - good enough - which I need to remind myself of a bit more often - so Ptah ( good enough CD copy) and Charles Mingus Presents Charles Mingus (good enough Barnaby vinyl), both of which are played a couple of times a year tops, don't need to be replaced.

I understand why others have their preferences: hearing Jackie McLean's Tipping the Scales on vinyl rather than streaming was a more than marginal gain and allowed me to enjoy the music far more, but I'm trying to be rational according to my priorities which is hearing good music in a format that allows me to fully enjoy it. If I upgrade a recording, I really want night/day difference, which I do get, for example, from RVG edition CDs to either BN classics or TPS. Otherwise I'm trying to focus on music I've not heard before or don't have in my collection in whatever form.
 
I understand why others have their preferences: hearing Jackie McLean's Tipping the Scales on vinyl rather than streaming was a more than marginal gain and allowed me to enjoy the music far more, but I'm trying to be rational according to my priorities which is hearing good music in a format that allows me to fully enjoy it. If I upgrade a recording, I really want night/day difference, which I do get, for example, from RVG edition CDs to either BN classics or TPS. Otherwise I'm trying to focus on music I've not heard before or don't have in my collection in whatever form.

With Blue Note particularly it's not too hard. CD copies are either mid 80s, first gen digital or the RVG series. The vinyl wins every time. I take your point about new music though...
 
Not unlike collecting rare 1st editions of books. You don't buy them for the pleasure of reading the material itself...it's for something else entirely.

I think collecting expensive trophy records can be become very much like that. Though I don't suppose people pay thousands for 1st edition Ian Flemings unless they're first a big fan of James Bond.

For myself, I just prefer old records kind of in the same way I'll take an old Penguin paperback over an e-book.

Thankfully the Blue Note collectors with deep pockets aren't interested in lots of interesting music put out on other labels so it remains affordable!
 
IKWYM - I'm trying to strike a balance between wanting to hear the music and wanting to have a decent pressing. I'm now trying to stop myself coughing up for a vinyl remaster/repress when I've a perfectly decent CD version on the shelf - Ptah being a case in point.

The Swedes have a concept of Lagom - good enough - which I need to remind myself of a bit more often - so Ptah ( good enough CD copy) and Charles Mingus Presents Charles Mingus (good enough Barnaby vinyl), both of which are played a couple of times a year tops, don't need to be replaced.

I understand why others have their preferences: hearing Jackie McLean's Tipping the Scales on vinyl rather than streaming was a more than marginal gain and allowed me to enjoy the music far more, but I'm trying to be rational according to my priorities which is hearing good music in a format that allows me to fully enjoy it. If I upgrade a recording, I really want night/day difference, which I do get, for example, from RVG edition CDs to either BN classics or TPS. Otherwise I'm trying to focus on music I've not heard before or don't have in my collection in whatever form.
I also much prefer to have the music I want on vinyl in a decent mastering and pressing. One way I limit myself is not to pay more than £40 for a single LP either new or secondhand. I do as a worst case apply that to doubles and box sets, but very rarely have if ever and expect to pay a bit less per LP. I have had this self imposed limiting factor for a long time. Though I have been tempted to break it a few times for something I have really wanted, especially as prices for both good SH copies and good reissues have really escalated over the last few years, but have stuck to it.

Unfortunately demand, recent lack of pressing plant capacity and inflation looks like pushing the Tone Poets and similar over my limit soon and the lack of capacity to repress makes SH copies of these increase in price now just as happened with Music Matters. Reckless Records in Berwick Street had the TP of ‘Chuck Baker Sings’ priced at £200 and you would be very lucky to find any Music Matters reissues under £100 now. :eek: I paid less than £35 each for all of mine. I suppose it is still possible to find excellent, but lesser known records for a few £’s (@paulfromcamden still seems to be a master at it), but I haven’t really found anything in recent years.
 
I also much prefer to have the music I want on vinyl in a decent mastering and pressing. One way I limit myself is not to pay more than £40 for a single LP a single LP either new or secondhand. I do as a worst case apply that to doubles and box sets, but very rarely have if ever and expect to pay a bit less per LP. I have had this self imposed limiting factor for a long time. I have been tempted a few times for something I have really wanted, especially as prices for both good SH copies and good reissues have really escalated over the last few years, but have stuck to it.

Unfortunately demand, recent lack of pressing plant capacity and inflation looks like pushing the Tone Poets and similar over my limit soon and the lack of capacity to repress makes SH copies of these increase in price now just as happened with Music Matters. Reckless Records in Berwick Street had the TP of ‘Chuck Baker Sings’ priced at £200 and you would be very lucky to find any Music Matters reissues under £100 now. :eek: I paid less than £35 each for all of mine. I suppose it is still possible to find excellent, but lesser known records for a few £’s (@paulfromcamden still seems to be a master at it), but I haven’t really found anything in recent years.

tbf I think Chuck Baker Sings is super rare :D
 
@poco a poco Jim - agree that the second hand market for almost any BN vinyl is completely overbought. At a recent fair dealers were charging £40 for French DMM reissues! At that price I'll save my money and invest in a Tone Poet title instead : )
 
@poco a poco Jim - agree that the second hand market for almost any BN vinyl is completely overbought. At a recent fair dealers were charging £40 for French DMM reissues! At that price I'll save my money and invest in a Tone Poet title instead : )
Paul I didn’t mean just Blue Notes, but I personally have not found any Prestige, Impulse, Actual or even OJC’s in either under counter record shop bins or charity shops, at least in what I would regard as at least VG+ condition, for ages where it was quite common. Even good Classical music vinyl seems to have really gone up in price.
 
Though I don't suppose people pay thousands for 1st edition Ian Flemings unless they're first a big fan of James Bond.

Not quite. There are many vinyl investors and flippers out there who care very little for the content - you know - the price of everything and the value of nothing types. The art world and book collecting is very much the same - big time. At least the likes of FW Rare Jazz Collector plays them and appreciates the music. DGM has a more balanced attitude to my mind - hence the slightly controversial BN75 choice. And he obviously loves the music in a critical way - something that is missing from so many collector blogs.
 
I also noted that DGM uses a self imposed price limit even for originals that seems to be between $75 & $150, he mentioned both. Even in the States it seems that it is difficult to find original Blue Notes, even the lesser known ones, for that.
 
Paul I didn’t mean just Blue Notes, but I personally have not found any Prestige, Impulse, Actual or even OJC’s in either under counter record shop bins or charity shops, at least in what I would regard as at least VG+ condition, for ages where it was quite common. Even good Classical music vinyl seems to have really gone up in price.

Agreed - the bargains are definitely becoming thin on the ground sadly.
 
But Joe Harley has said they will all eventually be repressed if sold out. I suppose FOMO means some people can’t wait.

It was the typo I was :D at!

Re Chet Baker Sings, at that price I might be tempted to trade it in for 5 new TPs! - it's not one I play that regularly
 
For some reason, asking prices of Blue Note records across the board (not just original or early pressings) have gone crazy since the pandemic. And they are not that common on the ground in the B&M shops either. I just saw a dealer selling a used BN75 anniversary pressing of Wayne Shorter for 50 euros!! Madness.

I am not sure why this is happening. It's as if a whole cohort of collectors have suddenly discovered this jazz label and there's a feeding frenzy of all things BN. At this sort of prices, the Classic and TP albums are a bargain (although the TP is beginning to push the limit, delivered). Fortunately I already have most of the BN albums I want on CD or LP. I usually buy to upgrade but with the crazy pricing, it'll probably have to stop.
 
It was the typo I was :D at!

Re Chet Baker Sings, at that price I might be tempted to trade it in for 5 new TPs! - it's not one I play that regularly
Oops I did’t even notice that even in your quote. I’m blaming Auto Correct, but I’m probably loosing the plot these days.:rolleyes:
 
How many records would BN have made in a run of each title back in the day?
I think it depended on who was the nominal leader to some extent and there popularity at the time, but quite a few at least in the late 50’s to early 60’s when Jazz was very popular. America was a big market and the their output was often sufficient for them to use multiple pressing plants across the country and I think often sending extra metal work copies or lacquers rather than copy Master tapes.

Perhaps a better example of what has happened in the past few years is Music Matters Records Blue Notes. They started in 2007 as a subscription only service. They seem to have had only about 400 subscribers in the early years. A lot of mine were released in 2010/11 and the subscribers numbers are mid 300’s. Until the end 2013 they pressed only 2x45rpm versions 112 in all and are supposed to have only pressed around 500 of each release. After that they pressed 33 1/3’s and we’re selling via distributors as well, but in many cases the original runs had still not sold out. It was not until around 2017 that sales really started to take off and MM brought it all in house selling direct and pushing up prices and postage costs. When the Tone Poet series started in 2019 with ‘Now He Sings Now He Sobs’ and Shorter’s ‘Etc’ they reportedly only pressed 500 of each at first based on Joe Harley’s experience at MM and they only expected to run for a year. These two sold out instantly and needed to be repressed. They were apparently shocked at that world wide demand and are now pressing in the multiple thousands. In some cases Harley has hinted over 25K of pressings.

So it is in around the last 5 years the demand for high quality Jazz vinyl has gone mad and along with it prices including those of original and other early pressings encouraging more companies to start to get in the game. How long it will last who knows. I have heard Tulip Bulbs are again likely to be a good investment. Do you think I should perhaps get into that market early to make a killing? :p
 
I think it depended on who was the nominal leader to some extent and there popularity at the time, but quite a few at least in the late 50’s to early 60’s when Jazz was very popular. America was a big market and the their output was often sufficient for them to use multiple pressing plants across the country and I think often sending extra metal work copies or lacquers rather than copy Master tapes.

Contract pressing in the States was always very hit and miss sq-wise. I guess that's why they sent the metalwork. That might suggest there should be a quite a range of quality between pressings all the same...
 
Contract pressing in the States was always very hit and miss sq-wise - that would suggest there should be a quite a range of quality between pressings...
Gavin, since my previous reply above I have found this on LJC https://londonjazzcollector.wordpre...graphy-2/blue-note-first-pressing-quantities/ based on this he estimates in 1957 Blue Note pressed 2,500 of each pressing, but that was only at Plastylite although that was their main pressing plant for Blue Note then, but as I said they often, although perhaps it was a little later, also used additional pressing plants.

Plastylite pressings if in top condition usually have the highest prices.
 


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