Time to go mirrorless - but what?

[Gromit]

Are you able to buy on sale or return? I think the best way is to get the camera in your hands and see if it works for you. I absolutely love the Z cameras. The bodies are superb and as you say, due to the short flange distance, they can be used with a wide array of lenses. Not only that, but due to the IBIS, you get to shoot these lenses stabilised too (another benefit of mirrorless - it seems only Pentax are doing IBIS in a DSLR body)

Lefty

Shortly after the release of the Z cameras, I did have a brief play with a 6 at LCE in Lincoln which felt so good in-hand The only camera I've picked up which feels as comfortable is the E-M1 Mk2 which is a triumph of ergonomic design IME - how Oly have made a camera fit large hands, yet be so small, is amazing. The Z also has that 'just right' feeling, and Nikon's UI is a given as I'm familiar with it. The store manager at LCE is a good friend of mine so he may (if I ask nicely) get to take a Z6 for a wander for an hour or so. Handy as the shop is only a 5 min...er perhaps 10 min walk (it's up a bloody steep hill) from the Cathedral.

 

[Lefty]

Shortly after the release of the Z cameras, I did have a brief play with a 6 at LCE in Lincoln which felt so good in-hand The only camera I've picked up which feels as comfortable is the E-M1 Mk2 which is a triumph of ergonomic design IME - how Oly have made a camera fit large hands, yet be so small, is amazing. The Z also has that 'just right' feeling, and Nikon's UI is a given as I'm familiar with it. The store manager at LCE is a good friend of mine so he may (if I ask nicely) get to take a Z6 for a wander for an hour or so. Handy as the shop is only a 5 min...er perhaps 10 min walk (it's up a bloody steep hill) from the Cathedral.

Ah, hadn't realised you'd already given it a go. As you know, I'm a big fan of Nikon's ergos and UI and the Z cameras are no exception. There's nothing more frustrating than being out in the landscape with it all happening in front of you (having woken up at some un-Godly hour) only to have to battle your camera to get it to do what you want it to. This was the issue with the Sony. The Nikon just gets out of the way and does the job with a minimum of fuss and can be relied upon to not let you down.

That would be ideal if you could take a Z6 for another spin. I believe Mark LJ has now transitioned to a Z6 from his Df for his second body duties (I think he still uses a D850 as his main body). On a slight tangent, he has also recently picked up an X100V (which he is getting superb results with up in Scotland).

Lefty

 

[Gromit]

Ah, hadn't realised you'd already given it a go. As you know, I'm a big fan of Nikon's ergos and UI and the Z cameras are no exception. There's nothing more frustrating than being out in the landscape with it all happening in front of you (having woken up at some un-Godly hour) only to have to battle your camera to get it to do what you want it to. This was the issue with the Sony. The Nikon just gets out of the way and does the job with a minimum of fuss and can be relied upon to not let you down.

That would be ideal if you could take a Z6 for another spin. I believe Mark LJ has now transitioned to a Z6 from his Df for his second body duties (I think he still uses a D850 as his main body). On a slight tangent, he has also recently picked up an X100V (which he is getting superb results with up in Scotland).

Lefty

Didn't realise MLJ used a D850 - I did entertain the idea of one some time ago but for me it would be just too specialised, ie my technique just wouldn't be good enough to justify me owning one. Saying that, in the right hands (Mark does show some promise as a landscape 'tog ) it is obviously a beast of a thing.

I so, so want to get down to just one system but every time I get near it, I fail at the last hurdle.

 

[Mr Perceptive]

I so, so want to get down to just one system but every time I get near it, I fail at the last hurdle.

To go with one system you have to be willing to accept quite a bit of compromise. Personally I think the solution is to have 2 or 3 systems, that each do a specific task, and to minimise the overlap

 

[Derek Wright]

I didn't realise that you were so old. The first SLRs were produced in the 1930s ..

In the 1950s, 1960s the vast number of cameras for sale were viewfinder based cameras mainly with no interchangeable lenses, only screw on adapters. There was quite a large number of camera manufacters in Germany buying in stock items eg lenses, shutter mechanisms, the manufacturer adding the design of the body and the film advance mechanism.
The big names were the Agfa Silette (I think) and the Kodak Retinette. In 1965 I visited the Kodak factory in Stuttgart, quite impressive large numbers of assemblers fitting together the various models of the Retinette. The film processing including colour print processing labs. The guys who took us around the site made sure to take us around the print drying area - vast rolls of images from the public - German female beauty was on display. Helped to emphasise the relative wealth of Germany to the UK, we felt we were the poor relations.
The next phase in photography was the kit coming in from Japan, it was mind blowing, the advances in design were very dramatic. The mass produced and mass use of the SLR came about.
End of my potted history of cameras in the 50s to the 70s (possibly through a polarizing filter)

 

[ron]

I was unsure at first regards mirrorless , I love my D850 and use it mainly for wildlife , the only issue was the mirror slap noise often scared subjects away especially when doing faster FPS. I decided to give the Sony A9ii a try with electronic shutter, it didn't take me long to adjust and now I love it , the only thing I was missing was the D850 45mp so I decided to try the Sony A1 . Having these high res EVF's is excellent , some people still prefer OVF but its nice having a live view of your exposure settings. I was going to get the A7Riv but couldn't live with the EVF blackout at higher FPS so went with the stacked sensor A9ii and A1 . The blackout isn't usually a problem for most depending what you photograph but for me needed the speed for tracking birds in flight. I've tried Nikons Z's and Canon's R5 and a couple Olympus , they all good cameras and offer their own strengths and weakness

 

[ron]

Obvs. But, read the review. And for the price, for photographing birds, it’s worthy of consideration.

Modern mirrorless have no problem with smaller apertures , my mate uses the 600mm f11 with his R5 and loves it. No its not great for fast action but great for small critters and weighs nothing for what it is , quite funny when you see it next to my Sony 200-600 and even more amusing next to a 600mm f4

 

[Lefty]

Didn't realise MLJ used a D850 - I did entertain the idea of one some time ago but for me it would be just too specialised, ie my technique just wouldn't be good enough to justify me owning one. Saying that, in the right hands (Mark does show some promise as a landscape 'tog ) it is obviously a beast of a thing.

I so, so want to get down to just one system but every time I get near it, I fail at the last hurdle.

Haha - Aye, Mark's not bad

Yes, when I shot with him back in Autumn 2019, he was using a D850 as his main camera. (Paired with the 70-200/2.8 FL and also a tasty Voigtlander 58/1.4 Nokton SL II which he let me try - it was glorious!)

The D850 is a wonderful camera, but I can't see me returning to a DSLR. The benefits of mirrorless (for me) outweigh any negatives. To be honest, there are only 2 criticisms I have of the Z7 for my purposes.

1. Battery life. Whilst 'acceptable', my Z7 doesn't have the endurance of my old D800e (not a problem though as I just carry extra batteries)
2. The exposed nature of the sensoe means it gets a lot of dust on it and needs regular cleaning

Haha, if you feel like running multiple systems, then I say go for it! Life's too short. After all, I have also recently started up another fling with Fuji as a second system in the form of the X-E3

Lefty

 

[Bananahead]

The exposed nature of the sensor means it gets a lot of dust on it and needs regular cleaning

There should be a setting that closes the mechanical shutter when you switch the camera off. (at least there is in the Canon world)

 

[Gromit]

Haha - Aye, Mark's not bad

Yes, when I shot with him back in Autumn 2019, he was using a D850 as his main camera. (Paired with the 70-200/2.8 FL and also a tasty Voigtlander 58/1.4 Nokton SL II which he let me try - it was glorious!)

The D850 is a wonderful camera, but I can't see me returning to a DSLR. The benefits of mirrorless (for me) outweigh any negatives. To be honest, there are only 2 criticisms I have of the Z7 for my purposes.

1. Battery life. Whilst 'acceptable', my Z7 doesn't have the endurance of my old D800e (not a problem though as I just carry extra batteries)
2. The exposed nature of the sensoe means it gets a lot of dust on it and needs regular cleaning

Haha, if you feel like running multiple systems, then I say go for it! Life's too short. After all, I have also recently started up another fling with Fuji as a second system in the form of the X-E3

Lefty

I did end up nipping into Lincoln on monday (of course going into LCE) to have a look over the Z6. The weather was disgusting which meant not being able to take a walk up the street with the camera, but as the shop was so quiet, it did mean spending plenty of time chatting/mulling over the options.

No question, the Z6II (they didn't have a Mk1 in) is a wonderful thing in the hand. 'Small, but large' I think would be my loose description of it - Nikon have hit the bullseye with the camera's ergos again. Did I buy one?

No, although it was damn close and I can 100% understand why people like the Z kit.

I've really enjoyed my time shooting the Leica M - I genuinely 'get it' and the appeal of the system is very strong. Whether one considers them value for money is a debate that will run forever but I didn't enter into buying one for my own use without being able to sell on for what I paid, or very near. I don't have the means to approach it any other way. As a result, my Leica kit has been sold - an itch scratched and don't regret buying it for one second.

I came home with a nearly box-fresh OM-D E-M1 Mk2 with the 12-40 Pro 2.8. Small, light, brilliant ergos and something that will withstand pretty much any weather. I still have 2 systems on the go, but at least they can be used any time, anywhere.

 

[Robby]

I did end up nipping into Lincoln on monday (of course going into LCE) to have a look over the Z6. The weather was disgusting which meant not being able to take a walk up the street with the camera, but as the shop was so quiet, it did mean spending plenty of time chatting/mulling over the options.

No question, the Z6II (they didn't have a Mk1 in) is a wonderful thing in the hand. 'Small, but large' I think would be my loose description of it - Nikon have hit the bullseye with the camera's ergos again. Did I buy one?

No, although it was damn close and I can 100% understand why people like the Z kit.

I've really enjoyed my time shooting the Leica M - I genuinely 'get it' and the appeal of the system is very strong. Whether one considers them value for money is a debate that will run forever but I didn't enter into buying one for my own use without being able to sell on for what I paid, or very near. I don't have the means to approach it any other way. As a result, my Leica kit has been sold - an itch scratched and don't regret buying it for one second.

I came home with a nearly box-fresh OM-D E-M1 Mk2 with the 12-40 Pro 2.8. Small, light, brilliant ergos and something that will withstand pretty much any weather. I still have 2 systems on the go, but at least they can be used any time, anywhere.

Speaking of Z cameras this just arrived:

Nikon Z6ii/Nikkor Z 24-70 by Rob Moores, on Flickr

Having looked at several other mirrorless cameras this seemed to be the best option for me. I did look at several others - Lumix S5, Sony A7RIII, Olympus EM1 Mk2, Fuji XT4 - but the Z6 II just seemed to be the better allrounder. It doesn't have Sony's high MP sensor, or the video abilities of the Lumix, or the size and weight of the Olympus or the old school charm of the Fuji but each of those cameras seemed to have compromises that I didn't want to accept.

I will be keeping my Leica M purely because every time I have owned one in the past I have itched to get another.

Looking forward to getting out later once the battery has charged to have a good play.

 

[Gromit]

Speaking


Speaking of Z cameras this just arrived:

Nikon Z6ii/Nikkor Z 24-70 by Rob Moores, on Flickr

Having looked at several other mirrorless cameras this seemed to be the best option for me. I did look at several others - Lumix S5, Sony A7RIII, Olympus EM1 Mk2, Fuji XT4 - but the Z6 II just seemed to be the better allrounder. It doesn't have Sony's high MP sensor, or the video abilities of the Lumix, or the size and weight of the Olympus or the old school charm of the Fuji but each of those cameras seemed to have compromises that I didn't want to accept.

I will be keeping my Leica M purely because every time I have owned one in the past I have itched to get another.

Looking forward to getting out later once the battery has charged to have a good play.

Nice one, Rob - will look forward to further reports and images

 

[Lefty]

I did end up nipping into Lincoln on monday (of course going into LCE) to have a look over the Z6. The weather was disgusting which meant not being able to take a walk up the street with the camera, but as the shop was so quiet, it did mean spending plenty of time chatting/mulling over the options.

No question, the Z6II (they didn't have a Mk1 in) is a wonderful thing in the hand. 'Small, but large' I think would be my loose description of it - Nikon have hit the bullseye with the camera's ergos again. Did I buy one?

No, although it was damn close and I can 100% understand why people like the Z kit.

I've really enjoyed my time shooting the Leica M - I genuinely 'get it' and the appeal of the system is very strong. Whether one considers them value for money is a debate that will run forever but I didn't enter into buying one for my own use without being able to sell on for what I paid, or very near. I don't have the means to approach it any other way. As a result, my Leica kit has been sold - an itch scratched and don't regret buying it for one second.

I came home with a nearly box-fresh OM-D E-M1 Mk2 with the 12-40 Pro 2.8. Small, light, brilliant ergos and something that will withstand pretty much any weather. I still have 2 systems on the go, but at least they can be used any time, anywhere.

'Small but large' - that's a perfect description!

I have to try Olympus kit one day. My brief play with an OM-D E-M1 Mk2 (when buying my D800e) and comparing it to my X-T2 and the D800e left me very impressed with its AF. It also felt great in the hand. I get the feeling it would make a great 'mountain system' for big days on the hills. I've also had a play with some Olympus RAWs and was pleasantly surprised by their colour rendition (which seemed natural yet vibrant) and white balance.

As to the Leica, I have to say the prices put me off ever trying any of the kit. It just doesn't seem like VFM. Sure, the form factor is wonderful and for some types of photography, there are very few camera systems which can fulfill that niche. However, as a 99% landscape tog,it just doesn't make sense for me. (Especially when the X100 series exists for much less money)

Enjoy! I look forward to seeing the resulting images

 

[Lefty]

Speaking


Speaking of Z cameras this just arrived:

Nikon Z6ii/Nikkor Z 24-70 by Rob Moores, on Flickr

Having looked at several other mirrorless cameras this seemed to be the best option for me. I did look at several others - Lumix S5, Sony A7RIII, Olympus EM1 Mk2, Fuji XT4 - but the Z6 II just seemed to be the better allrounder. It doesn't have Sony's high MP sensor, or the video abilities of the Lumix, or the size and weight of the Olympus or the old school charm of the Fuji but each of those cameras seemed to have compromises that I didn't want to accept.

I will be keeping my Leica M purely because every time I have owned one in the past I have itched to get another.

Looking forward to getting out later once the battery has charged to have a good play.

Good man! I look forward to hearing and seeing how you get on

 

[Lefty]

There should be a setting that closes the mechanical shutter when you switch the camera off. (at least there is in the Canon world)

The Nikon's don't allow this I'm afraid. I did read about this when the EOS R came out but am in two minds about it. Doesn't it open the shutter mechanism up to damage? (The sensor, isn't as fragile some believe, as it has a glass covering, whereas the shutter blades / curtain are potentially more fragile?)

 

[ron]

The Nikon's don't allow this I'm afraid. I did read about this when the EOS R came out but am in two minds about it. Doesn't it open the shutter mechanism up to damage? (The sensor, isn't as fragile some believe, as it has a glass covering, whereas the shutter blades / curtain are potentially more fragile?)

Yes you are correct , I have this feature disabled with both my Sony's . Those shutter blades are tissue thin , any tiny objects that can get lodged in blades can cause lots of damage

 

[Lefty]

Yes you are correct , I have this feature disabled with both my Sony's . Those shutter blades are tissue thin , any tiny objects that can get lodged in blades can cause lots of damage

Thanks for the feedback - glad to hear I'm not alone in this thinking.

 

[Gromit]

'Small but large' - that's a perfect description!

I have to try Olympus kit one day. My brief play with an OM-D E-M1 Mk2 (when buying my D800e) and comparing it to my X-T2 and the D800e left me very impressed with its AF. It also felt great in the hand. I get the feeling it would make a great 'mountain system' for big days on the hills. I've also had a play with some Olympus RAWs and was pleasantly surprised by their colour rendition (which seemed natural yet vibrant) and white balance.

As to the Leica, I have to say the prices put me off ever trying any of the kit. It just doesn't seem like VFM. Sure, the form factor is wonderful and for some types of photography, there are very few camera systems which can fulfill that niche. However, as a 99% landscape tog,it just doesn't make sense for me. (Especially when the X100 series exists for much less money)

Enjoy! I look forward to seeing the resulting images

Thanks Amar - it's a camera I'm familiar with so can't wait to get out and about. I find Olympus kit so darn useable - I'm not going to say it matches up to FF image quality, but it's a camera that gets completely out of the way and is so robust it'll go pretty much anywhere, in any weather. The menus are a little daunting to start with but once the camera's set up it all makes sense, with no need to delve into menus at all. The glass (especially the Pro line) is stunning too, although there are some real gems further down the range - notably the tiny 45mm f1.8 which (IMVHO) is probably the best value lens on the market, regardless of system.

The Leica? It's been a lovely thing to own, and I was extremely lucky to get one in such superb condition at such a good price. The feel of using a camera which gives a sense of perfect mechanical precision, yet with (most of) the modern digital bits and bobs inside. It's remarkable how similar it feels to using my Nikon F3. An itch scratched though, and really happy to have done so.

I am going to take a good look at that Nokton 58 for my Df too. Having experienced their M mount glass, they do make a superb product - both in terms of build and IQ. The icing is the 58 is electrically linked to the F mount, allowing full matrix metering. Lots to like.

 

[alanbeeb]

I'm very happy with the Z6 but its a good thing I've become comfortable cleaning my own sensor - it does seem to pick up dust quite easily.

One thing I would say is that Nikon should offer their 24-200 f4-6.3 zoom as a kit lens for it instead of the 24-70. The 24-200 is absolutely superb in every respect, though f6.3 is a bit slow for some I suppose. But its only a fraction longer than the 24-70 f4, costs about the same and its performance is incredible. My 24-70 is at the back of the cupboard unused now. The 14-30 f4 and the 24-200 are all I ever use.