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Thorens TD-124/II restoration / upgrade

Tony, isn't it the mains frequency and not the voltage that defines the speed of rotation in an AC motor?
 
Not with an induction type motor, which only works if there is 'slip' between the motor rotation and the magnetic fields it is chasing.

Paul
 
Tony - if it fancies a bit of sightseeing, send it to me in Zurich if you like (preferably after its been fixed ;))!

Richard
 
Tony L said:
Time for a quick progress update: the replacement Shopper bearing is in and working fine and the deck as a whole is working pretty well and certainly sounds very good. The only area I feel is still needing some attention is the step pulley, which is certainly the prime noise source on this deck now I've replaced the idler (the new one is way, way better). The step-pully runs fairly quietly as long as it's bearing holds oil, which unfortunately is not very long as it just leaks out of the bottom and ends up in a pool on the wall shelf. There's another small pool under the Shopper main bearing, so better people than I can't make these things oil-tight either... old decks, don't ya just love 'em! I should be able to fix the latter with a light smear of grease on the gasket next time I can be arsed stripping the deck right down, but the step-pulley bearing is more of a problem. I'm on the lookout for another step-pulley, ideally I'd like to find one in true NOS condition.

I've not got round to trying the lightbulb trick yet – I want to build a mains block type affair for that, e.g. a simple plug-board with two sockets, one wired in series with the other – it has to be the neatest way of doing this, though I've yet to find a suitable two-way donor board. I want something like a two-way version of the old grey Music Works 6-way block, i.e. something I can just screw a pair of standard single 13 amp mains sockets to. I'm expecting this to make quite a radical difference as the step-pulley noise is unquestionably connected to my having to use the eddy-current brake almost full-on to slow the deck down to the correct speed. When allowed to run with the brake at it's lowest setting the drive mechanism is all but silent, though it's probably going round at about 36rpm!
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Don't know if it is of any relevance, but when messing about with old Nortons and Triumphs in the 1970s (and your TD124 sounds about as drippy) we used to use a red silicone sealant on both sides of the rubber oil seals that were supposed to, but didn't, stop oil from dripping out of the primary drive chaincase. I can't remember the name, I think it might have been Arexons Motorsil. It was essential that all of the sealing faces be oil-free when applied for it to work. I doubt that smearing grease will do more than delay the drips.
 
Hermetite the red stuff is (or used to be) Hemetite. Its also in blue (potable applications, I recall). Red used for oil fired Agas and the like. I used it on my old TD124 bearing end edges and worked a treat.

Hylotite now, i think
 
My TD124 is following a superficially similar upgrade process to Tony's, in that I have the Swissonor non-magnetic ferrous platter and new alloy top platter coming soon. There we diverge - my motor was rebuilt at modest cost by Martin Bastin and I have fitted new main bearing parts from Jim Campbell in the States (eBay seller jec965). I also bought an Ortofon-style solid black plinth from Jim and a lovely Brazilian Cherry armboard. Other improvements include a Keystrobe LED strobe conversion. Much searching on eBay finally yielded a fairly quiet idler wheel, which I shall treasure.

I have noticed that the TD124 is musically far more adept and agile if the eddy brake is removed (the speed is wrong, of course) so my solution is a new Martin Bastin PSU that should be with me shortly. This PSU allows voltage to be adjusted down to around 100v; also frequency is adjustable, so it should be possible to get the correct speed without the eddy brake.

Out of curiosity, I am having a new TD124 armboard CNC machined from aircraft grade alloy. The idea is that the armboard will then be of the same material as my Audio Note (new) Arm3 tonearm, so there won't be a characteristic impedance mismatch between the two. It may not work, but there's only one way to find out!
 
The refurbishment will probably take quite a while, it's not even got to Schopper yet (it's currently sitting in 'export scan' status at Tamworth). I've stuck the 'spare' Lenco L70 back on the wall-shelf in the meantime - it's thumbing it's nose at the world by running so quietly I can barely hear it with my ear against the plinth! If only all idler decks were as easy to service as Lencos...
 
That is one beautiful deck Tony - well done! The SME goes really well with it too looks wise (as well as performance I imagine). Must say I regret letting my pre-improved 3009 go recently, I bet it could have done a nice job with an MC on my slated 401.
Speaking from experience, I think there's something special and very underrated about these classic idler drive turntables (Thorens, Lenco, Garrard etal) that you don't really see until you take your LP12 goggles off!
Mark
 
My Swissonor platter and top platter are now at UK Customs, so should be with me very soon!
 
Shuggie said:
My Swissonor platter and top platter are now at UK Customs, so should be with me very soon!
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Excellent news, I'll be interested to see what you think of them.

My TD-124 has made it into Switzerland and is due to land at Schopper tomorrow. It's travelling light without it's platters. It was pointless sending them across given they are the Swissonor ones and a known quantity / quality.
 
Hi Tony. Thanks so much for sharing this.

I must find the original 1968 HiFi Sound group test (I think hifi dave has it still buried in his old mag collection). The TD124 as a new item was commented on for being able to hear the under platter parts "whirling underneath."

Just in case anyone thinks that you HAVE to send thousands on one of these to make it sound any good, I ought to say that a clean stock one with period SME and matching cartridge can still deliver the sonics well, there being a load of subtlety there even before the full works of an overhaul.

Any reason why a drop or two of viscous gear oil (EP80) couldn't be used here and there? It's clingy, designed for high pressures (as in thrust plate lubrication) and although I could be very mistaken, seems like a thicker version of the turbine oil Thorens once used... Certainly seems to work safely in the TD125/150/160 bearings.
 
I'll await Schopper's verdict (they now have it safely), but I think I was just unlucky with the intermediate wheel bushings, I'm certain they are shot / damaged on this 124 despite it otherwise being in excellent condition (the motor shows no wear on the shaft etc). The intermediate wheel has slop you can actually feel, and once the eddy-current brake is brought in at near maximum strength to bring the platter down to speed in my high-voltage area it starts making quite a bit of noise. The good thing is remarkably little of this noise exits the cartridge as rumble, but I'm the world's pickiest person when it comes to these things so I'll end up paying a bloody fortune to sort issues most others would probably simply ignore. My plan, eventually, is to settle down with just one turntable, and the 124 is the one out of the four I own that I want to keep as I love the aesthetics / ergonomics so much. My aim is to get it running as quietly as the 301, which is a lovely quiet thing.

PS I did try a thicker 80w motor oil in the stepped-pulley, though never grease as I felt I'd never get it out again. Improved it, but still not as it should be.
 
My Swissonor platters have now been released by UK Customs, after a little over 3 days. Not exactly brisk service but now maybe there will be some hope of delivery!
 
PaulMB said:
Reading this thread makes me realise what a fool I was to sell my 124 in the early '90s. (picked up arm-less for about £25 around 1978, and then sold for what I thought was an enormous £350 or so with an Audio Technica arm I'd mounted around 1994). I still remember the pleasure in working on this over-engineered (in the good sense) machine that looked as if no thought whatsoever had been given to the cost of production. Good luck with your project!
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You were a wise man not a fool . Of course you could take advantage of today's fools paying mountain of cash for this old laughable clunker but you did OK. Why do you assume that people in analog Heyday when turntables were common and highest quality sources were more stupid than we are ? To be clear I have nicely restored TD 124 from first owner who didn't play much and kept it well . It's a mechanical toy for adult kids with questionable taste in music and horder behaviour nothing more. And the fashion came from far east where this kind of behaviour is common. It is OK to spend a lot of money on it and watch it works like spending a lot on train toys or model airplanes but it has nothing to do with sound or advancing the sound or even rediscovering the sound. Have a nice one Sires.
 
LOL, there is some truth in what you say about my TD-124, and no it won't be a bargain once done. I could probably have bought a decent second hand SME 20 or NA Dais by the time I've finished, but, as you say, that's not what it's about. I just want a nice 124 and I'm happy to pay to get it done right. By saying that there is something very right indeed about the sound of a good well-serviced idler deck, e.g. I'd put my slate-mounted and fully restored 301 up against pretty much anything out there. It's a seriously good sounding record player by any standard. I say this as someone who's owned many of the most shouted / argued about decks (Linn*, Roksan, Rega, Nottingham Analogue etc).

* Don't read this as 'an LP12', IIRC I went through 12 or 13 before I managed to assemble one I really liked - that's how picky I am!
 
Well said Tony, I would put our Garrard 401 in slate up against most machines. We have had everything her from an SME 20, Oracle, LP12s, and many more exuberant or is that extortionate turntables and I have yet to hear anything that can sound as good as our Garrard and yes we have spent a little money on it, but not as much as some of the cost of turntables. And in my opinion you cannot go wrong with a well serviced TD124 with exception to the Garrard of course.

Cheers Natalie
 
If getting an lsd shot everyday is what you want from your music replay, than that farting idlers with their mechnical ,monotonous drive can serve a good substitute:D and I'm pretty shure fans of Satchmo and Diango Reinhard are ballistic about it. I did not hear SME but better Oracle is on different planet from any idler I heard , old or recent. I remember how proud I was from my loosely Shindo inspired Thorens update , drive was quiet , bearing tide so I took it to my friendly dealer with SOTA Audio research and Magnepan setup (not actually my cup of tea and inspite of sky high prices would not get it for free , unless to impress friends) . They looked at that table and exchanged half smiles . We played it and it sounded like you know OK !!!. Than they hooked up budget VPI with comparable arm and comparable $500 cart , well let me say that I offered to vacuum their sale room in exchange for an eye opening experience. I'm not saying that the table is total junk , it has its momements (actually one moment, very primal and appealing to many listeners) it's just nowhere near the cult status it's aproaching . My next visit was with my "quietest , one of the best LP playback ever at any price point ".. the pride of British industry and reviewer's whore . mighty Rega P9 I couldn't get to terms with. Dealer who was not that familiar with Rega's bazilion models looked it briefly up , we played it and he said:... well , actually not that bad for cheap Rega (I didn't tell him it's a $5k table so he thought it's a just REGA you know) Than we put to use Oracle table and Sayonara !! Since I vacumed the floors last time I just did the shop window
and never came back with any other table ,but thats another story and axe to grind while drinking whatsever left at home and trolling on the net when the Girl is out :D
 
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