To be fair Tony I think that the nuances of motorsport at this level are only understood by the avid fan. I was massively into rallying until the early 2000s and remember the Group B debacle very clearly. It wasn't so much the power available, but the rate of development due to the budgets that were going into it, it reminded me of 60s and 70s F1 where the drivers became almost secondary to the the pursuit of weight reduction and performance enhancements making the cars much faster but less safe at the same time. Have you ever been in a Group B car... aside from the space frame they are ludicrously flimsy. If that sort of thing is creeping back in (and I don't follow it closely enough now to know - F1 is my passion) then it needs reining in and power restrictions and material limits is a good way of doing it. As you say watching a lesser powered, but skilfully driven car is no less satisfying.
The latest works WRC cars. Too fast.
- Thread starter Tony Lockhart
- Start date
To be fair Tony I think that the nuances of motorsport at this level are only understood by the avid fan. I was massively into rallying until the early 2000s and remember the Group B debacle very clearly. It wasn't so much the power available, but the rate of development due to the budgets that were going into it, it reminded me of 60s and 70s F1 where the drivers became almost secondary to the the pursuit of weight reduction and performance enhancements making the cars much faster but less safe at the same time. Have you ever been in a Group B car... aside from the space frame they are ludicrously flimsy. If that sort of thing is creeping back in (and I don't follow it closely enough now to know - F1 is my passion) then it needs reining in and power restrictions and material limits is a good way of doing it. As you say watching a lesser powered, but skilfully driven car is no less satisfying.
Tony Lockhart
Avoiding Stress, at Every Opportunity
I’ve had a passenger ride in an RS200 and a Nissan 240RS, sat in a 6R4 and Delta S4. Apart from the Nissan, I doubt I could drive them as my legs just don’t fit! The RS200 did strike me as a bit flimsy, but as an early 20s petrolhead, that was a positive thing!
The cars are immensely strong now. He’ll, the doors on Tanak’s car opened!
The cars are immensely strong now. He’ll, the doors on Tanak’s car opened!
I knew there was an advantage to being short
The S4 was an amazing machine, but yes back in the day the flimsiness didn't seem as important... as we get older self preservation kicks in I reckon. Saw the footage of Tanak's car and was genuinely amazed at how well it stood up.I think it reflects the fact that outer body panels aren’t worth anything in a collision in these cars other than to keep debris out, and this has probably been the case since the Mk 2 RS2000s were retired. The important bit is the safety cell and as we saw with Tanak the structure survived even though the outer panels and the bits that can afford to be sacrificed like wheels and suspension were destroyed.
Tony Lockhart
Avoiding Stress, at Every Opportunity
That’s some panel damage!
cutting42
Arrived at B4 Hacker Ergo
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
Indeed. I think firstly the panels, but then the bigger structures like suspension, engine and gearbox, etc, are designed to absorb impacts and fail rather than transfer the energy to the safety cell. Ripping off a front strut and hub assembly takes a lot of energy out of an impact, which isn’t then transferred to the meatware inside the cell.
Konteebos
Surfing on the lake of fire
As a rally competitor for the last 27 years, I'd agree with that - fast corners are what sorts out the men from the boys.
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35451
Guest
Fast corners amongst trees...
Konteebos
Surfing on the lake of fire
Having been upside-down at 85mph, going through trees, I concur...
The big issue with Group B cars was safety in the car more than the speed and power. The roll cages were not very good, some even having fuel in them and in the event of a crash they were lethal. Modern WRC cars are much more safer as evident in Tanak's crash. With the extra downforce and engine power modern cars are as quick if not quicker than the old Group B cars. Look at the evolution of modern road cars and the power they can attain. My Stage 2+ Golf R is very quick off the mark and put against a like for like car of the 80's a Lancia Delta Integrale, my Golf trounces them.
Konteebos
Surfing on the lake of fire
A Golf R wouldn't get near a Group B Lancia Delta S4 on acceleration, they did 0-100kmh in 2.7 seconds. On gravel. Zero to 118mph in 8 seconds.
Tony Lockhart
Avoiding Stress, at Every Opportunity
And, yet again: the cars are very safe for the crew inside. What is shocking in that video is how far the car goes off the stage. There were spectators beside the stage in a ‘safe’ position, but a 120mph 1350kg missile would rip straight through them. And it didn’t even shed much of its mass during that long, drawn out incident.
Konteebos
Surfing on the lake of fire
Indeed, they were lucky that they didn't hit any large, immovable objects head-on, but the modern cars are very safe in an accident.
No but if you apply the engineering to the WRC Polo's of a few years back it would walk on the Delta's. My R is sub 4 sec on 0-60 so it's pretty quick for just a road car too. It's easy these days get small hatchback cars like the R, or RS3 Audi's to very big horsepower and they are immensely quick. I've watched Group B and modern cars many times and I know how quick they are. Remember when Topgear ran old cars vs new round the track and the old rally spec Quattro was trounced by the modern Audi road car.
Tony Lockhart
Avoiding Stress, at Every Opportunity
That’s a lot of apostrophe abuse, dude.
Konteebos
Surfing on the lake of fire
The Delta S4 weighed 890kgs, to match its power to weight ratio you would need 830bhp in a Golf R, possible - but very expensive. The Group B Quattro in the Top Gear episode was on completely the wrong tyres as was the Mk1 Escort that they put up against a modern Fiesta rally car.
The Metro 6R4, which was not a front-runner in the Group B days, is still competitive against modern cars. Tyres and dampers have come on leaps and bounds since the 1980s.
Tony Lockhart
Avoiding Stress, at Every Opportunity
And I can assure you that even in 1986 the crew were ok: