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The John Westlake/Lakewest MDAC/FDAC, VFET and Detox

Discussion in 'audio' started by Tony L, Oct 14, 2019.

  1. JTC

    JTC PFM Villager...

    It's easy for me to say with only a minor 'investment' (perhaps £100-200?), but I'm inclined to just let it go. I might think differently if I was in for £1k+ though.
  2. Sibbers

    Sibbers Earthling

    Tend to agree. It could be resolved legally with enough energy and finance, but I reckon most folk are spent. A punch on the nose would do it for me, then I would shake his hands and forgive him. That's quite a few punches on the nose for John though if we all wanted to do that. I think pointing out the relationship between John Westlake and fraud, rip-off, stealing, etc etc at any opportunity so that no-one else gets so easily stung would be the best bet and of course Wikipedia would be a good place to do that.

    Flutteringwow - the Onix rip off thing was totally new to me, how did that play out? Did everyone just lose?
  3. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    No. I don’t want to go into it all again here, but legally that one was comparatively simple as it was a straightforward internet sale and therefore bound by consumer law, credit card protections etc. Other than my losing my own OA21S which was in for service (I don’t care as it is all but valueless now given the brand reputation, I’d certainly never want to use it again!) everyone else I am aware of has now received a refund via credit card charge-back, Section 75 or via applying legal pressure. That is all that matters. I have drawn a line under it now, a company/personality I’ll keep right off pfm in any context. I wish I could do the same with this John Westlake mess.
    russel, eevo1969, Sibbers and 2 others like this.
  4. Rosewind

    Rosewind Lost in Translation

    Well, I have written my investment off, but I refuse to let John off the hook in his or my lifetime.
    sam_cat and Old Valve Git like this.
  5. Lowand

    Lowand Don't tell the humans

    I'm in this for £350 .... not a lot compared to what some folk have forked out but certainly enough to thoroughly piss me off .... its probably a good job he doesn't live just up the road.
  6. nostromo

    nostromo pfm Member

    I'm in for about £600, L3 MDAC2, Detox, full width chassis (FDAC) and streamer board. How many shares does that buy in the two commercial products shown below?...none I guess.

    I started looking at the beginning of the current section of this thread/saga and even after Tony got involved and laid it on thick and clear that JW needs to deliver and that sponsors need to lawyer up and wake up to what's happening (very relevant to me), JW seemed to be responding and offering solutions for most of us. But once @Space is the Place and someone earlier mentioned commercial products that looked like our project here JW decided to leave PFM and move to FB.

    It's very important to me and I guess everyone here that Tony keeps this thread alive on PFM as a historical document (evidence). I know Tony wants this gone ASAP and could pull the plug, but I plead that he doesn't.

    I know it's been said recently, but on page 44 of this thread @Space is the Place shows us what JW produced for this project:

    Here's a link to the commercial product.

    And the Detox once again shown by @Space is the Place, a commercial product from Stack Audio.

    Commercial product:

    Remarkably similar looking to the Detox.
  7. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    I want it gone, but I will run it until Westlake delivers the product he promised or refunds those he took money from. Those are his only two options to make it go away. I do however give him my word that once he has either delivered or refunded to people’s satisfaction I will lose the whole thing from here. I do not enjoy hosting this sort of content at all.

    As I said upthread my advice is to very factually and unemotionally update his Wikipedia entry and also to contact those who currently/have employed him (Project, Creek etc).

    Don’t rely on pfm being able to place sufficient pressure to generate the required outcome alone. Just be fair, honest and stick to hard facts (as I have done in the opening posts of this thread) and there is no possibility of libel etc.
  8. John_73

    John_73 Trekkin' Bus Punk

    Absolutely shocking and indefensible if JW has in fact used funds from PFM members to produce products meant for them, with other manufacturers. Wonder what the mags would make of all this...

    He appears to post regularly over at, fwiw.
    Sibbers and nostromo like this.
  9. nostromo

    nostromo pfm Member

    @Tony, you have my thanks. What you say is very fair to both sides.
    Lowand and Del monaco like this.
  10. Spike

    Spike pfm Member

    I’ve said this before, you are a totally innocent party in this fiasco. Sadly you host it. Hopefully it will disappear. I’ve now got 2 2/3 years to retirement and don’t live in hope of receiving it before then if ever. Once again thank you for supporting all us idiots!
    Sibbers, alloja and nostromo like this.
  11. jason rockley

    jason rockley pfm Member

    This all sounds very much like the LH DAC Kickstarter scam
  12. nostromo

    nostromo pfm Member

    From the article linked above:

    As a result the Link as it’s called runs on software developed by Italian community based outfit Volumio whose own hardware featured in our recent High End 2019 show report. Theo created the electronics that run this software and designed the casework for the small but perfectly formed Link, but he called in an industry big gun in John Westlake to help. John created the signal detox system that removes noise from the signal, reducing the jitter and EMI that are the flies in the ‘perfect sound forever’ ointment of digital audio
  13. sq225917

    sq225917 Bit of this, bit of that

    He designed the rPi, qudos....
  14. Rosewind

    Rosewind Lost in Translation

    Quodos ....? The amp boards?
  15. sq225917

    sq225917 Bit of this, bit of that

    Peter, the electronics that run the software is a rpi, I was congratulating him on apparently having designed the rpi.
    Rosewind likes this.
  16. russel

    russel ./_dazed_and_confused

    If I find him posting there I usually remind him about the MDAC.
    John_73 and Sibbers like this.
  17. sq225917

    sq225917 Bit of this, bit of that

    Indeed you do it's always good popcorn time when you drop a bomb over there.
    russel likes this.
  18. Timcat

    Timcat pfm Member

    In a nutshell, the IP route is a non-starter really. The reason is that (1) there is no contractual obligation between JW and the pfm investors requiring him to assign his IP rights to the investors; when someone is paid to produce a product for another, the IP rights in the product do not automatically flow to that customer, and (2) JW was not an employee of the pfm investors. As some may know, I am a UK and European Patent Attorney by profession, so I could elaborate, but the basic advice wouldn't change.

    The best way of getting redress would be through contract and consumer law. However, the problem is that, for many of us, the sum isn't worth the bother. Most fraudsters who work this form of scam know this and, thus, know they can get away with it most of the time.

    An alternative would be to report the whole affair to the Czech authorities, on the off chance that they might take an interest. I have no knowledge of Czech law and have no idea whether this would be worthwhile.

    Personally, had I paid for VTEC amps, I would have sued some time ago, as the sum involved would have justified it, but as my investment was £3-400, it wasn't. Organising a large group of people to fund litigation is an administrative nightmare and takes dedication. Maybe someone in for thousands might care to do this. As I have mentioned before, I would be willing to contribute to this financially, but, given my relatively small loss, I would not want to run it.
    Ian G, Hawtin, adamdea and 1 other person like this.
  19. gints

    gints pfm Member

    Do you really think that by some law somebody will force to lost him house and everything what is inside to refund us money as I do not think hi has much in a bank. I can see only way is to force him to put on hold his research and designing dream DAC and produce something closer to earth. Or just deal with VFET amps and make them as pure analog devices, that should not be too difficult and that would be big relief, at least for me.
  20. Space is the Place

    Space is the Place pfm Member

    Thank you Tim for your pragmatic post, i think most of us with as similar investment as you realised a while ago it's just best just to write it off.

    However like you have discussed in your post above it's the VFET investors that are really losing out.
    One VFET investor posted a bit back that he might not see his amps because he might not live long enough.
    (JW) if your sitting on a cellar full of Audiolab Monoblocks hoarded to change into VFETs, perhaps they could be modified to make them into VFETs tout de suite?

    Or the VFET investors, their money refunded?
    jamjar784, Wilson, Hawtin and 5 others like this.

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