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The John Westlake/Lakewest MDAC/FDAC, VFET and Detox

Discussion in 'audio' started by Tony L, Oct 14, 2019.

  1. Dodeth

    Dodeth pfm Member

    Not another penny. But it’s hypothetical anyway.
  2. Reenberg

    Reenberg pfm Member

    Lawsuit. This is a crowdfunding project. Before anyone is dreaming of a class-action lawsuit, I think one should study the disclaimers on kickstarters ect. I don't think anyone have a change.

    Sometimes I'm lucky, and one day I might have VFET and a dac.
  3. killie99

    killie99 pfm Member

    Nothing to do with Kickstarter (or any other official crowdfunded scheme) so what they have in their T's & C's is of no consequence to this thread.
    Darren and sam_cat like this.
  4. sam_cat

    sam_cat C'est Crounchifique!

    And to start with there with ZERO T&C attached to paying for the MDAC2/FDAC/TDAC Whatever its name is... That was added quite a bit later on the website and ammounted to a couple of sentences.
    Timcat likes this.
  5. Del monaco

    Del monaco Del Monaco

    Why not start with a letter written but then signed by all or the majority? If this is not answered, an interview with a well known press/magazine regarding the unhappiness around this. Reputation is a vital attribute in any business.
    Somebody do JWs apparent skills and repute should have had this sorted by now. He has managed a deadline when engaged with other companies recently?
  6. sideshowbob

    sideshowbob 47 Lab Rat

    The hifi press will run a mile from anything with the potential for legal dispute.

    I suspect you're all screwed, tbh. He's in a different country.
    Darren and Del monaco like this.
  7. Del monaco

    Del monaco Del Monaco

    It’s a terrible predicament.
  8. John_73

    John_73 pfm Member

    We’re all just speculating. Maybe those involved in this should try getting expert legal advice (Citizen’s Advice Bureau a good start maybe?). The whole sorry saga has been pretty thoroughly documented here, might at least light a fire under his posterior to get things moving if he knows those involved are seeking legal advice for monies lost.
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2021
  9. Del monaco

    Del monaco Del Monaco

    I would be by now. It’s unreasonable given the faith and money that has been put into his pockets.
  10. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    One thing that really infuriates me more than anything else is John Westlake seems to be selling IP that you funded to other companies before delivering on his promises and agreements here. This is the area I’d like to see a lawyer investigate, e.g. could action be taken against Project and other companies who have effectively benefited from IP that wasn’t legitimately for sale as it had already been paid for here.

    Another thing is I feel his Wikipedia page should be kept updated by stakeholders and any manufacturers using him as a designer notified that he owes a simply huge amount of money to a lot of people for product paid for in advance in good faith long, long ago.

    I really do think a lawyer would be useful here. This whole debacle is a huge stain on this site IMHO and I’d really like it brought to a conclusion ASAP.
    earlofsodbury, alloja, Wilson and 3 others like this.
  11. Sibbers

    Sibbers Earthling

    Yes, its absolutely different from what was promised and any legal body in the western world would be able to determine that. For me its just about the energy to resolve and how no one really wins, although I do wish John would fess up and apologise to make moving on feel a bit easier. John knew (and it's pretty easy to see) that as soon as he got involved in other commercial projects, he was up to no good and started to require a narrative, which he built on and found himself in a situation he probably isn't comfortable with and I would imagine does his mental health no good. I think keeping his Wikipedia references honest and up to date seems like a good idea - there is a reference to this debacle, but it's super minor.

    "He is currently semi-retired, avoiding completing a few crowd funded projects [11] and preparing his Doctorate PhD research based on insight and understanding into an acoustic and system phenomenon observed over his career as an audio designer."​
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2021
  12. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    The Wikipedia entry is a total whitewash to my eyes. I’m not going to go near it as I’d find it impossible to be polite, but I suggest anyone with the ability documents the events and timeline there.
  13. gints

    gints pfm Member

    Thinking about lawyer. Do you actually paid anything to John? At least all my Paypal payments went to Dominik Peklo, if I remember correctly.
    Sibbers likes this.
  14. Del monaco

    Del monaco Del Monaco

    I agree with the IP question. He also appears to have a total disregard for trusting ‘clients’ who have waited for an unreasonable amount of time to receive a product/products that they trustingly gave their money for. These are all his clients and he shouldn’t just close the door on those that clearly have justifiable concerns. It’s sad that an engineer of his undoubted repute should be in this situation. I would advise a lawyer as I think there are some issues here. He needs to deliver instead of procrastinating and serving other companies in the meantime.
  15. Rosewind

    Rosewind Lost in Translation

  16. simon g

    simon g Older, wiser but no longer retired

    The IP angle is the one to pursue, without doubt. I would suggest, as a first step, that the group write to the CEO of Pro-Ject, Creek, et al, informing them of the situation. Clearly, this letter would need to be factual and capable of having documentary evidence as proof, if required. I suspect these companies do not realise JWs situation viz this debacle. I very much doubt that they'd want their names associated with such behaviour. Pressure from real world potential employers/customers of JW will have most chance of success, imo. Direct legal action would be very challenging and potentially very costly.
  17. flutteringwow

    flutteringwow Platinum Ears

    All John has to do is threaten legal action like Adam @Onix did with The Great Dna Ripoff and this thread will no doubt disappear as the Onix one did. Im honestly surprised he hasn’t done that yet tbh…
    Wilson likes this.
  18. JensenHealey

    JensenHealey pfm Member

    Anyone will lose a tonne of money of you start down an IP route. IP law is notoriously expensive to operate within and before you even get that far have to spend a tonne of money even trying to establish that there is any IP there.

    The idea that investors own or have any claim over any IP is probably laughable.

    Find any piece of paper that gives an investor such rights? Thought not.
    Find any IP that John has in his name and find some paper trail that shows investors paid for it? Thought not. Inventors and owners of IP are different - and the terms of any deal in the background over licensing may be private, even if they exist.

    But Contract and delivery law - quicker, easier and maybe less expensive. But have you got a decent contract to wave? I would hazard that a bit if internet promising will not cut the legal mustard - lots of necessary details would be missing. But even if you did win - what are you going to get? A bit of satisfaction - but to be sure, no product, or return of money or compensation. You would need to establish the subject of complaint would have any moneys to deal with it, hard enough in itself. Like suing a builder here - yes you can sue him, but it will turn out that everything you think he owns as assets, are all in someone else's name.

    So the end result - the complainants end up with a big bill. And several headaches.
  19. sam_cat

    sam_cat C'est Crounchifique!

    It could have been concluded long ago, if the Project DACbox s2 that John designed for them and that feels very much like the MDAC2 had been offered to those that were in the deal.
    Then it would just be detox, VEFETS, TDAC and all the other optional extras in the MDAC2 (phono stages, balanced outs, HT bypass, room correction, slave units etc etc etc) that were offered and paid for. But SOMETHING would have been delivered.
    alloja likes this.
  20. paulski

    paulski pfm Member

    There are zero chances of any redress via legal action. As has been pointed out several times above a it’s a legal minefield and the only thing it would produce is a huge bill.

    Unfortunately it’s best to accept it for what it is and simply write it off to experience. I know that’s unpalatable for many, especially those in for VFETs, but this is not a fight this group can win.
    EIffel likes this.

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