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The John Westlake/Lakewest MDAC/FDAC, VFET and Detox

Discussion in 'audio' started by Tony L, Oct 14, 2019.

  1. Timcat

    Timcat pfm Member

    I agree, still vapourware!

    Everyone who has paid JW has already expressed an interest! JW should honour his original commitment to offer all contributors an MDAC2 when it is completely ready for production and shipping. To start a new list of preferred customers from those who have been following his every move on FB is unacceptable. He should have announced his plans here and contacted all sponsors directly, but only after he had the MDAC2 design finished and ready for production in the quantities required to supply all sponsors.

    On the other hand, this may just be yet another distraction!
    jamjar784 and mww like this.
  2. torstoi

    torstoi pfm Member

    ..greater risk than ripping us off for nothing ? whow..

    It requires more funds..

    Push your timebeam ahead a bit & you'll find that Tony has possibly understood very well
    what's going on there.

    Namely possibly camouflaged advertising for a new rip off in the thread of an old rip off.
  3. Hawtin

    Hawtin pfm Member

    My few cents: My impression is that JohnW wants to know who'd be interested in getting an MDAC2 soon and who wants to wait for the final FDAC. You can get your FDAC later "at cost" still if you decide to get an MDAC2 now. The now mentioned MDAC2 comes in two versions, one fitted inside an MDAC, other version has custom full width chassis, psu and whatnot. MDAC2 is a "fork" from current project in that it uses many of the already designed parts and combines those in a circuit board that fits inside an MDAC chassis. This fork version has some difference in its actual DAC-part. The idea came to JohnW in a vision of some sort ;). Be it as it may, this new design is simpler and more easily produced. So, he wants to order components for the first version of this MDAC chassis fittable dac and was taking a preliminary list of names who'd be interested in that. He said that MDAC fitted version comes first, custom chassis later as it requires more design work. The whole thing degenerated from there as most people announcing their enthusiasm for the project wanted their version with custom chassis, additional features like AV-bypasses, streamers and whatever.

    I feel dizzy. Take this all with a grain of salt as it is my interpretation and YMMV...

    One more thing. This is nothing new, no new cons spun. It is the old carousel spinning around, this time on an upswing...
  4. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    For clarity: I have removed my post as I am still unsure as to the situation. I obviously have no visibility of the Facebook group, but its concealed nature given the amount of money that he has taken from people here on this site is absolutely unforgivable IMO.
    Sibbers, jimbot2.0, alloja and 9 others like this.
  5. Hawtin

    Hawtin pfm Member

    Here's a post from JohnW from yesterday: (copypaste messes the date line but whatever)

    Lakewest Audio
    YtestmielulatiSepSoSroshdmay antseuuf or11t:16 eAMiadr ·
    The DAC array layout is taking shape - I've now found a good arrangement and might have the DAC array section completed by tonight.
    As some of you might be aware there is a global chip shortage and its only getting worst as larger company's place massive orders to garantee future supply.
    I'm about to place an order for the IC's used in the new DAC array to build about 25 MDAC2's. While designed to fit within the orignal MDAC sleeve, there will be a custom chassis offered later for those without Donor MDAC's.
    At this stage I just need an idea of "Non committal" orders - so those "potentially" still interested in the MDAC2 - so that I know ruffly how many IC's I need to start sourcing. (as I have to finance these IC's now, I cannot afford to order a limitless supply). There might be other IC's that could cause an issue as the supply situation is very dynamic - but these IC's used in the DAC array are critical - without substitute, so I need to order every one I can get my hands on now if the MDAC2 is going to happen in 3 months time - as I say currently working to secure enough for 25 MDAC2's.
    If your holding out for the FDAC - MDAC2 will not effect your "At cost" FDAC position - but atleast you can have a new DAC to play with until FDAC. Later, the MDAC2 can be a slave device to FDAC.
    As I say I dont need any firm commitments (as your not 100% sure what MDAC2 will be at this time [​IMG] - I understand this), I just need to know a "ruff" number for IC sourcing.... first delivery's about 3 months from now (for those with donor MDAC chassis) - "custom chassis" units to follow later as I'll work on the chassis design once the PCB design is completed.... The Custom Chassis will have internal PSU.
    For completeness of the list, please advise if you have also sponsored the Detox development, as this will now be offered as an internal DAC option (provided Detox development sponsership).

    also a bit more later in the discussion:

    • Lakewest Audio
      Detox will be an internal MDAC2 option - but will not have the Streamer option upon initial release - we will be going to CM4 hardware for the streamer, order of planned release:
      FDAC / streamer hardware (same option streamer board for MDAC2 / FDAC).
    fred sonnen likes this.
  6. Timcat

    Timcat pfm Member

    100% correct!
    alloja, Lowand, wintoid and 2 others like this.
  7. Space is the Place

    Space is the Place pfm Member

    Erm, just read the list of people that bought a Salvaged MDAC and have given money for the MDAC 2 board? Shirley you owe everybody that much even if your left over with some chips? I'm sure they'll be some change from the £100k...

    Those with no access to Facebook and those who've stumped up the money, do they exist anymore, or is it just Facebook people now?
    Hawtin and booja30 like this.
  8. torstoi

    torstoi pfm Member

    Subjectively and uninformed my impression is that he may have rolled people here
    and in an 'you don't see me if I just close my eyes' - fashion
    may just roll over the people in a closed thread over there, again.

    I've written it off & don't believe anything is coming out of that.
    His behaviour is a mayor fail & the only way to handle such examples of mankind to me is:
    No deal.

    With the existence of google there's a fair chance to learn that something has gone wrong with an MDAC attempt
    already, so there's a good chance of shovelling money down the toilett again in that new Facebook attempt, whatever..
    So I'd hardly know how to feel sorry if the new thing is going down bad again,
    and if someone does get anything there indeed,,meanwhile I personally wouldn't care anymore.

    I'd understand well if some here would feel fecked twice if such happened, tho..
    Durmbo, booja30 and Darren like this.
  9. JTC

    JTC PFM Villager...

    I’m definitely out. It’d be good money after bad. Fool me once, et cetera...
    Darren likes this.
  10. nostromo

    nostromo pfm Member

    If JW was to come back here now, he would receive an enormous amount of negative criticism and we know he's not good at taking that, or even positive criticism, he works his own way as a one man band, has never taken a long term job since PT or Audiolab I think, which says something about his character and has been through his own ups and downs. The negativity (most of it justified) would affect anybody and especially JW, this project snowballed and got way out of his control and ability. He would end up spending all his time replying to questions and stamping out fires here, it's almost 200 people vs JW now I think and that would require a lot of time and effort to handle. Personally I hope he keeps his head down and delivers the MDAC2 in 3 months time to the first 25 and then everyone else before he re-emerges here.

    Actually, I hope he only returns here after every sponsor has a DAC and/or the VFET amps they wanted. Eventually, I hope those Detox only sponsors get an option to buy that in a box too. The few that have written off or moved away from the project will no doubt have already come to terms with their loss, but let's not make that all of us. A new hope is in the air this summer.

    If Tony would allow it, this would be a great place to enjoy discussing the MDAC2, Detox, VFETs and eventually the FDAC but only until they exist and until then it's best JW keeps his head down in his work and delivers.
    Darren, fred sonnen and Rune like this.
  11. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    FWIW I still think you guys need to get a good lawyer. If John Westlake isn’t delivering and seems to be favouring a locked Facebook group, especially if he is taking fresh money off new people there then if I was a stakeholder I’d want to sue the absolute living shit out of him. Sorry, but getting something back, anything, is better than getting nothing, and he clearly has some assets that are of value, e.g. the test gear you all bought.

    I know I’ve said I’ll stay out of this, but his behaviour is an ugly blight on my website, on my good name, and I’m still absolutely livid about this whole thing. It needs concluding.
    highfi, simon g, onlyconnect and 14 others like this.
  12. Rune

    Rune pfm Member

    To me it looks like the "Facebook people" are not new but all originally from here. And I see no indications of any fresh money changing hands.

    I still consider this as positive news and at it worst status quo.

    From the list I can see that It looks like 50% is going to use their old MDAC chassis / salvaged MDAC they originally bought from John. The other half including me will go for a new full with chassis which none have paid anything for. It is only an indications of interest.
    ti33er and nostromo like this.
  13. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    Why it is all happening behind closed doors and with some paying customers excluded is hugely worrying. I am happy to run things in the open here and will do so at my expense (i.e. I don’t want JW’s money for a Trade Account). He has full posting rights here and will have for as long as anyone is out of pocket.
    Sibbers, Timcat, Cambs12 and 4 others like this.
  14. russel

    russel ./_dazed_and_confused

    If you want to make a small fortune suing people you had better be prepared to spend a large one, an implied contract, different countries, Brexit, decent lawyer 300UKP/hour....
    Darren likes this.
  15. fred sonnen

    fred sonnen pfm Member

    From my point of view you get the answer of the question "Why is JW here posting anymore?" in "nostromo's" post.
    If you do not accuse JW of anything evil, but consider him as a human being (with all his obvious faults), but see with what contempt and ignorance here the "boyclub" I have titled is beating on him, I would also no longer post here. If he would show up here, the undignified spectacle would be the same every time.
    But what I do not understand at all from JW: He has repeatedly offered to inform the members who are not on FB by mail. This he has obviously never done (!).
    minton, EIffel and nostromo like this.
  16. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    Once someone has taken what appears to be >£100k of other people’s money and failed entirely to deliver *anything*, let alone what was paid for I’d argue it was ‘big boy pants’ time and there was an expectation to face up to ones responsibilities rather than hiding away in a self-moderated locked group.

    He owes the investors of this site the product they paid for in good faith, or their money back in full. That is not a ‘spectacle’, it is the simple reality of the situation. Hiding is not a dignified option.
    Sibbers, jamjar784, Durmbo and 13 others like this.
  17. Spike

    Spike pfm Member

    Oh poor John! I’m sorry, we paid him a great amount of money to be treated appallingly. Some paid huge amounts of money. Still nothing to show. Asking who is interested in what on Facebook is just another delaying tactic. I had to remind him that I was on the list! So much for record keeping.
    His informing members is the biggest work of fiction since Harry Potter. The magic we were promised hasn’t appeared.
    I’m not accusing him of any evil. And I’m sorry but I’m hardly surprised some people are very angry at him. Actions speak louder than words and we’ve not seen any action.
    torstoi, Timcat and Darren like this.
  18. adamdea

    adamdea You are not a sound quality evaluation device

    What I can't understand here is why, if John actually proposes to produce a dac in 3 months, he isn't offering it to everyone, or alternatively- if he he can't be sure he's going to produce it, why he is offering it to anyone.

    I have however long suspected that this project would eventually become a sort of tontine in which the last few "standing" get a hand made product- this being the only solution to the problem that John is unable/unwilling to do what is required to get a product manufactured (or to recognise any obligation to those who are not happy with his behaviour)

    Either way- if 25 products really do get made I am not sure that will help anyone else.
  19. ti33er

    ti33er pfm Member

    Being practical and in my opinion, for what he is currently offering (no money has been requested as far as I know); just people putting up their hands to say they are interested (I’m one of them) should be put in priority order of the original list from PFM ...that seems fair to me - not everyone on that list may still be interested; nor heard of this latest offer yet; and if I can’t get one because I’m too far down that list, cest la vie...and I wait for the future batch/es

    Personally I don’t believe this is a gesture to extract more money from us, but hope John can come through this time within reasonable timescales of his current delivery estimation
  20. nostromo

    nostromo pfm Member

    My guess: Money required to source materials (BoM) and by producing in small batches to keep everything on a manageable scale and for easier debugging software/hardware. I'm guessing each unit will be built and tested by JW personally before shipping.
    Darren likes this.

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