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The Fight for the NHS/MMT economics

Because most of this is to do with Keynesian economics not MMT, and Keynesian economics has been the de facto policy of governments and central banks for 50+ years, other than a monetarist blip in the 1980s, and is not something that academics argue about much.

I do agree that the mainstream reporting on these issues are very poor, but that's more of a journalism and politics failing than an economics one.

PS Two year gilts have risen 0.25% and remain below 1%.
 
Because most of this is to do with Keynesian economics not MMT, and Keynesian economics has been the de facto policy of governments and central banks for 50+ years, other than a monetarist blip in the 1980s, and is not something that academics argue about much.

I do agree that the mainstream reporting on these issues are very poor, but that's more of a journalism and politics failing than an economics one.

PS Two year gilts have risen 0.25% and remain below 1%.
ISTM that the Keynesians have had their noses put out of joint by the growth of MMT. But the Keynesians have had since the 70’s to challenge the Monetarist lies and failed. Keynesians seem happy to talk to themselves in their lofty academic circles, but MMT is trying to talk to people on the ground. If MMT is having more success at getting the truth out there, then I say all power to them.
 
ISTM that the Keynesians have had their noses put out of joint by the growth of MMT. But the Keynesians have had since the 70’s to challenge the Monetarist lies and failed. Keynesians seem happy to talk to themselves in their lofty academic circles, but MMT is trying to talk to people on the ground. If MMT is having more success at getting the truth out there, then I say all power to them.

The problem in most places, especially the UK, is we have a political establishment where both parties exist to challenge nothing. I can’t imagine even the most diluted hint of MMT thinking getting as far as any Labour manifesto. As such the most it can hope for is to be an interesting after dinner topic in liberal/academic households or on internet forums. As ever all signposts point to the fundamental need for full electoral reform and a the implementation of a representative democracy. Without that we are stuck with the leaden 19th-20th century thinking of the two-party Westminster establishment. The whole system needs flushing out, the economic status quo is but one aspect.
 
The problem in most places, especially the UK, is we have a political establishment where both parties exist to challenge nothing. I can’t imagine even the most diluted hint of MMT thinking getting as far as any Labour manifesto. As such the most it can hope for is to be an interesting after dinner topic in liberal/academic households or on internet forums. As ever all signposts point to the fundamental need for full electoral reform and a the implementation of a representative democracy. Without that we are stuck with the leaden 19th-20th century thinking of the two-party Westminster establishment. The whole system needs flushing out, the economic status quo is but one aspect.
Disagree. Yes, the whole system needs flushing out, but the current system is built on lies, perhaps a little truth will do the flushing? Imagine an Emily Matlis or similar calling out the next Tory politician who talks about ‘taxpayer money’ for being a liar or ignorant of how money is created in the real world?

It could be revolutionary!
 
ISTM that the Keynesians have had their noses put out of joint by the growth of MMT. But the Keynesians have had since the 70’s to challenge the Monetarist lies and failed. Keynesians seem happy to talk to themselves in their lofty academic circles, but MMT is trying to talk to people on the ground. If MMT is having more success at getting the truth out there, then I say all power to them.

MMT *is* Keynesian. Apart from a little bit that either doesn't really matter or is wrong. In the opinion of the overwhelming majority of qualified experts.
 
There are actually two : the silver bullet populist debate (big sigh) and the economics debate (which is basically a done deal for 99% of qualified people).
Sorry, no idea what those debates are. Not come across them in my reading of MMT so far. Are they a Keynesian thing?
 
Sigh? There’s the problem, right there. Keynesians are so busy talking to themselves about economic minutiae that they can’t speak to anyone else about without being patronising.

The massive difference between Keynesians and MMT is that MMT starts from the very simple premise that tax is not the source of government spending and stays on that simple point while Keynesians lose that simple but essential point by going round in their own finely detailed circles, never getting to any important point since the death of Keynes and calling the very people they need to be on side if they are to have any relevance or get a message out there a bit thick.
 
The massive difference between Keynesians and MMT is that MMT starts from the very simple premise that tax is not the source of government spending and stays on that simple point while Keynesians lose that simple but essential point by going round in their own finely detailed circles, never getting to any important point since the death of Keynes and calling the very people they need to be on side if they are to have any relevance or get a message out there a bit thick.

We only have two (crude) levers for the economy why would you completely abandon one of those?

Given that ISLM and MMT are essentially the same why do you think that MMT allows more spending?

If it does allow more spending by what mechanism does it achieve this? And how is this increased spending linked to the productive capacity of the economy?
 
We only have two (crude) levers for the economy why would you completely abandon one of those?

Given that ISLM and MMT are essentially the same why do you think that MMT allows more spending?

If it does allow more spending by what mechanism does it achieve this? And how is this increased spending linked to the productive capacity of the economy?

What you’ve written bears no relation to my post, nor to your patronising *sigh*. It does however point to the way Keynesians are only speaking to each other in the rarefied atmosphere of academia and have no interest or relevance to the outside world because of inherent contradictions
We only have two (crude) levers for the economy why would you completely abandon one of those?

Neither I, nor more important MMT, talks about abandoning any tool. It specifically says the very opposite. I realise that I’m no where near as clever as you, but even I have noticed more than two “crude” levers mentioned in MMT.
Given that ISLM and MMT are essentially the same why do you think that MMT allows more spending?

I have no idea what you might mean by ISLM which no doubt means according to Keynesians that I’m a bit thick, but in the real world ISLM has had no relevance since Thatcher, it was steamrolled by Monetarism. MMT allows more spending in specific circumstances because it does not accept the monetarist model of the economy. If Keynesianism *is* MMT, and if ISLM *is* MMT, what’s the problem?
If it does allow more spending by what mechanism does it achieve this? And how is this increased spending linked to the productive capacity of the economy?

This has been answered many many times already. Besides if, as you assert, ISLM and MMT are the same, you already have all the modelling and equations to answer your own question. From what I can see (from underneath my rock) the main difference is only that where ISLM talks about Money Market Equilibrium, MMT talks about balancing the economy as a whole.

It seems that Keynesians are jealous of the increased profile that MMTers like Stephanie Kelton are receiving and are caught between complaining that MMT is stealing Keynesian ideas and diving deep into minutiae to try and accuse MMT of being wrong and/or unworkable. The fundamental problem with academic Keynesians is that they have made themselves irrelevant in the real world and have been driven by envy to saying, ‘MMT was our idea first’ then saying, ‘and it’s a rubbish idea anyway’ without realising the absurdity
 
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Neither I, nor more important MMT, talks about abandoning any tool.

MMT abandons the use of interest rates and sets the rate at an arbitrary level, usually taken to be zero to avoid redistributing money to savers. Broadly are two crude levers of macro control are monetary policy and fiscal policy and even more broadly, Monetarism is the abandonment of fiscal policy, MMT is the abandonment of monetary policy and Keynesianism is the use of both.

Unless my understanding of MMT is out of date.

I have no idea what you might mean by ISLM

Mostly I am using it as easier than writing Keynesianism or Keynesian Economics.

ISLM is the original core idea of Keynes and is explained here. New Keynesianism has moved beyond ISLM but it's still a useful tool for understanding and explaining Keynesian ideas to a general audience, especially over the last 10 years when the economy has been operating in such extreme edge cases. Krugman has basically built his rise from obscure blogger to NYT columnist on the use of ISLM to explain a leftist perspective on macro to a lay audience.

Beyond that Keynes gets complicated and into ideas like prices being downwardly sticky, long run vs short run, philips curves, etc. There is a good, and readable, explanation of Keynes and Keynes vs Moneterism here : https://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/KeynesianEconomics.html

MMT allows more spending in specific circumstances because it does not accept the monetarist model of the economy.
If Keynesianism *is* MMT, and if ISLM *is* MMT, what’s the problem?

Keynesianism is MMT (again broadly) when interest rates are zero or approaching zero because monetary policy stops working and this is the era we have been living through since 2008. When the economy is operating normally, Keynesians believe that interest rates can be used to influence aggregate demand by encouraging people to either spend or save; MMT rejects this or at least sees no need for it.

For the last 10+ years Keynesianism (or at least the progressive end) has advocated expansive spending roughly in line with MMT because the top priority is to restore the use of all productive capacity of the economy and there is no need to worry about deficits or inflation. Indeed the point of the public and academic debate has been the Keynesian view that inflation and interest rate rises are impossible when the economy is in this state and the monetarist argument about hyper-inflation, punishing interest rates, debased currencies etc. (Spoiler: the Keynesians were right).

What happens as when the economy gets back to normal is the big debate in macro economics currently. Specifically, its a debate between different types of Keynesians and concerns things like secular stagnation, the limits of fiscal power both at the zero bound (GFC) and under more normal circumstances (Japan, etc). This is mostly a debate in academic circles although it leaks into public policy debate via people like Krugman and because of the oddly high profile of economics in public debate following the GFC and COVID.

MMT argues that we don't need to change our fiscal policy as the economy returns to normal and can carry on spending until we reach the limit set by inflation. Keynesians argue that this is either the same as Keynes (i.e. you would end up with the same level of spending and we are just arguing about accounting) or that would in practice end up being inflationary because of a lack of political self control and the effective abandonment of monetary policy as a mechanism to control inflation in an overheating economy.

Besides if, as you assert, ISLM and MMT are the same, you already have all the modelling and equations to answer your own question.

And if you do that you basically get this : https://worthwhile.typepad.com/wort...011/04/reverse-engineering-the-mmt-model.html
 
MMT abandons the use of interest rates and sets the rate at an arbitrary level, usually taken to be zero to avoid redistributing money to savers. Broadly are two crude levers of macro control are monetary policy and fiscal policy and even more broadly, Monetarism is the abandonment of fiscal policy, MMT is the abandonment of monetary policy and Keynesianism is the use of both.

Unless my understanding of MMT is out of date.



Mostly I am using it as easier than writing Keynesianism or Keynesian Economics.

ISLM is the original core idea of Keynes and is explained here. New Keynesianism has moved beyond ISLM but it's still a useful tool for understanding and explaining Keynesian ideas to a general audience, especially over the last 10 years when the economy has been operating in such extreme edge cases. Krugman has basically built his rise from obscure blogger to NYT columnist on the use of ISLM to explain a leftist perspective on macro to a lay audience.

Beyond that Keynes gets complicated and into ideas like prices being downwardly sticky, long run vs short run, philips curves, etc. There is a good, and readable, explanation of Keynes and Keynes vs Moneterism here : https://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/KeynesianEconomics.html




Keynesianism is MMT (again broadly) when interest rates are zero or approaching zero because monetary policy stops working and this is the era we have been living through since 2008. When the economy is operating normally, Keynesians believe that interest rates can be used to influence aggregate demand by encouraging people to either spend or save; MMT rejects this or at least sees no need for it.

For the last 10+ years Keynesianism (or at least the progressive end) has advocated expansive spending roughly in line with MMT because the top priority is to restore the use of all productive capacity of the economy and there is no need to worry about deficits or inflation. Indeed the point of the public and academic debate has been the Keynesian view that inflation and interest rate rises are impossible when the economy is in this state and the monetarist argument about hyper-inflation, punishing interest rates, debased currencies etc. (Spoiler: the Keynesians were right).

What happens as when the economy gets back to normal is the big debate in macro economics currently. Specifically, its a debate between different types of Keynesians and concerns things like secular stagnation, the limits of fiscal power both at the zero bound (GFC) and under more normal circumstances (Japan, etc). This is mostly a debate in academic circles although it leaks into public policy debate via people like Krugman and because of the oddly high profile of economics in public debate following the GFC and COVID.

MMT argues that we don't need to change our fiscal policy as the economy returns to normal and can carry on spending until we reach the limit set by inflation. Keynesians argue that this is either the same as Keynes (i.e. you would end up with the same level of spending and we are just arguing about accounting) or that would in practice end up being inflationary because of a lack of political self control and the effective abandonment of monetary policy as a mechanism to control inflation in an overheating economy.



And if you do that you basically get this : https://worthwhile.typepad.com/wort...011/04/reverse-engineering-the-mmt-model.html
Again, you’re responses do not address my quote. It feels as if it whatever I post, you respond with some lecture notes you took years ago.

Further, it feels very much as if your understanding is out of date. You appear to be someone who has been immersed in Keynesianism for some years and obviously has more reading than I do, but speaking as someone who has only started diving into economics very recently, most of what you assert is either not mentioned or contradicted by what I have read so far.

But then it is difficult to read properly, the light is a bit poor here underneath my rock

MMT abandons the use of interest rates and sets the rate at an arbitrary level
Keynesians believe that interest rates can be used to influence aggregate demand by encouraging people to either spend or save; MMT rejects this or at least sees no need for it.

No. MMT says many times that interests rates are one of the tools that may be used to balance the economy. It specifically rejects the setting of interest rates at an arbitrary level. What it does say is that interest rates are regressive in that they put money into the hands of richer lenders and takes money away from poorer borrowers. As such taking money away from the people who are more likely to spend into the economy, rather than save, is not a good idea when you want to stimulate the economy

MMT is the abandonment of monetary policy and Keynesianism is the use of both.
No. MMT specifically says the monetary policy and fiscal policy need to be used to balance the economy. It does not abandon monetary policy at all.

Krugman has basically built his rise from obscure blogger to NYT columnist on the use of ISLM to explain a leftist perspective on macro to a lay audience.

The idea that Krugman is promoting a leftist perspective is bizarre. While Krugman has acknowledged the fundamental truths of MMT, his reputation is an attack dog for the right wing to attack MMT.
 
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Interesting podcast from Brian Romanchuk, here, a bond trader who uses MMT as a basis for understanding how the economy, works, but far from an advocate of MMT.

In places he is quite critical of MMT, but he does talk about modelling, Bank Rates, Keynesianism in a way that makes sense
 


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