The Audio Forum
- Thread starter Shane2468
- Start date
davidsrsb
pfm Member
The handover from lumped models to transmission line in practical room sizes happens at around 30 MHz, which is one reason why EMC measurements below 30 MHz measure the cable and above measure RF.
The interesting thing about MP3 and other codec scoring is that experienced listeners give fairly consistent scores. What they are assessing is a very real quality degradation.
Lee T
pfm Member
I asked this question recently with little reply, how do we judge what we buy, do we listen, read reviews, listen to recommendations from users, how? all subjective is it not.
Btw, have no idea how Tony's post got in there
this was for drood.BTW, for the mouth, the all cables have zero impact on every single piece of equipment designed theory is utter nonsense IME.
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
So SWR is the only issue? Genuine question, btw, it's not my field ('no, Steve, really?). But to come back to my wider question, what is it that makes amplifiers sound different, that we can't/don't measure?
droodzilla
pfm Member
In my case, it varies.I asked this question recently with little reply, how do we judge what we buy, do we listen, read reviews, listen to recommendations from users, how? all subjective is it not.
Btw, have no idea how Tony's post got in there
BTW, for the mouth, the all cables have zero impact on every single piece of equipment designed theory is utter nonsense IME.
Speakers: A combination of technical (chiefly: can my amp drive them?) aesthetic (will the speakers work with my decor; are they visually appealing?) build quality and sonic considerations. The latter is, of course, evaluated by listening in the room where I intend to use them, although I wouldn't rule out measuring the speaker/room interaction.
Amplifiers: I look at features (I like tone controls), build quality, serviceability and power (enough to drive my speakers). I don't rule out the possibility that amps sound different but, in practice, any differences have been so minor as to be negligible in comparison with other practical considerations.
CD Players: Similar to amps, but I'm even less convinced there are substantive differences in sound quality between decently specced CD players.
Cables: I don't even worry about. As far as speaker cables go any length of reasonably thick copper wire will do - I use some Shark cable I bought from Maplins (£18 for 10 metres IIRC). Obviously, cables with weird LCR charceteristics might be another matter but why would you want to muck around with the signal to that extent.
Short Answer: apart from speakers which clearly do differ significantly, I focus on practical considerations when choosing kit and enjoy the music.
Lee T
pfm Member
How do you evaluate the differences are minor, where amps & cd players are concerned.
My experiences are quite different, when carrying out blind testing, something I used to carry out quite often when making decisions on a purchase, amps varied widely in SQ, cd players too, nowadays I just listen, i'm convinced enough, after many years of blind tests, I no longer need to do this to determine that lots written on forums regarding most stuff having minor differences is utter nonsense.
It is borne out too, if this were the case, the hifi industry would have died an early death, forums are full of this stuff, I never see actual science behind it though, just the usual subjective "fact" from experts who know better.
Not aiming this at you, but there are some here who do this.
FangfossFlyer
pfm Member
I went no further than the first page asking me to register before I could read it! So not for me.
Richard
TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
Me too. Not exactly inviting.
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
I've just skimmed their privacy policy. I have doubts that it would be legal under GDPR, which replaces the Data Protection Act on 25 May this year. For example:
- License to User Content. By using the Website, You grant the ProBoards Parties the right to publish Your Personal Information in connection with the ProBoards Parties' exercise of their license in and to Your User Content. You further waive any claims arising from the ProBoards Parties' exercise of that right. For additional information, see Terms of Service Section 15, regarding User Content
- CHANGES TO PRIVACY POLICY
Each time You use the Website, the then-current version of this Privacy Policy will apply. Accordingly, each time You use the Website, You should check the date of this Privacy Policy (which appears below) and review any changes since the last time You used the Website...
Tony L
Administrator
Do you have to join to read it?!
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
No, it's in the footer on the Login or Register pages
Tony L
Administrator
Wow, I see what you mean! ‘ProBoards’ looks to be one of the ‘build your free forum here’ type companies, so a degree of selling ones soul is I guess expected from the owner. The personal data bit looks well wonky to me! The very first implementation of pfm was on a similar platform and I didn’t like it at all hence migrating to server running my own install of vBulletin and now XenForo.
PS GDPR still scares the crap out of me, but the implication over on the XenForo support forum is the vast majority of forums shoud be fine unless they are using third-parties to bulk email or otherwise sharing data (which pfm has never done and never will do, the only emails anyone recieves from here are the notifications they request and they are sent from the forum software itself via the pinkfishmedia domain, no third-parties involved at all and no bulk emails in seventeen years of existence!).
droodzilla
pfm Member
Hi Raga, the short answer is I simply don't obsess about amps and CD players anymore. There might be small differences but these pale into insignificance compared with speaker/room interactions.
A slightly longer answer: I remember the first time I heard expensive kit after reading breathless reviews in hi-fi mags for months beforehand. At the time I had a Denon mini system with a pair of budget Mission speakers. The shop demoed me some Naim kit hooked up to a pair of £1000 Dynaudio speakers. The overwhelming impression was one of surprise - that the wow factor I had expected simply wasn't there. In fact, it didn't sound that much better than the budget system I enjoyed at the time. But I persuaded myself it did, and soldiered on along the Naim treadmill, upgrading as far as the 200/202 before trying other brands. Over time I've reached the conclusion that the differences in such components - if they exist at all - simply aren't worth sweating over. I'm happy with my Quad kit because I got it for a good price, it has the functionality I need and it's well built and serviceable by Quad in the UK if necessary. That's it.
While willing to concede there might be small differences in CD players and amps, I'm absolutely certain (read: as certain as I can be about anything) that decent gauge copper wire is as good as any possible speaker cable. I'm a Physicist and I know that there's nothing mysterious about electrons moving through a conductor. Just buy cheap copper cable, fit and forget.
cartman
Taking a sabbatical
Hi All. FWIW the forum shouldn't be locked for viewing. I had a non member posting abuse and I altered the settings to correct it,as I thought. I've never come across a non member being able to post on any forum, so it took me unawares to say the least.
I'm in an airport between flights right now at 3:30am and won't be on stable internet until weds evening. Will do what I can to read up and sort it in the meantime.
I had no expectation of having a real forum with lots of members. I was just playing with the software after following a proboards link that said "get your own free forum". I fully expected it to be either a con or something way beyond me and my iPad. An hour later I had the working model you can (or should that be can't) see now, which I showed Shane. He mentioned it on his Facebook page and suddenly I went from talking to myself to having a good few people joining.
I'm not looking to stay at the helm of this forum to be honest. I'd like to pass it on to someone with more passion and interest. I have an idea for succession, but that will have to wait until I get my travel over with. Suffice to say, the forum will be whatever its members and new owner want it to be. I won't place any restrictions on change and I'd like to see it evolve.
I have nothing but respect for TonyL and if I thought I could do half as well as he has with a forum, I might have given it a longer run. In the meantime, if anyone fancies their own forum, just click on the link at the bottom of any Proboards forum and you'll have a fully functioning one in an hour or less and not a penny spent. I'm living proof that it works!
I'm in an airport between flights right now at 3:30am and won't be on stable internet until weds evening. Will do what I can to read up and sort it in the meantime.
I had no expectation of having a real forum with lots of members. I was just playing with the software after following a proboards link that said "get your own free forum". I fully expected it to be either a con or something way beyond me and my iPad. An hour later I had the working model you can (or should that be can't) see now, which I showed Shane. He mentioned it on his Facebook page and suddenly I went from talking to myself to having a good few people joining.
I'm not looking to stay at the helm of this forum to be honest. I'd like to pass it on to someone with more passion and interest. I have an idea for succession, but that will have to wait until I get my travel over with. Suffice to say, the forum will be whatever its members and new owner want it to be. I won't place any restrictions on change and I'd like to see it evolve.
I have nothing but respect for TonyL and if I thought I could do half as well as he has with a forum, I might have given it a longer run. In the meantime, if anyone fancies their own forum, just click on the link at the bottom of any Proboards forum and you'll have a fully functioning one in an hour or less and not a penny spent. I'm living proof that it works!
whatsnext
Naimless
That is amazing post quality considering the location and time. Using a keyboard I trust
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
Just a caveat to all this, based on my comments upthread. The privacy policy of the Proboards forum is pants, and grants all sorts of rights to exploit users' personal information, with no way to decline it. It's basically 'if you don't like it, don't join'.
Given the recent fuss about Facebook, this should give people pause. It's also not going to meet the minimum requirements under GDPR, and when it doesn't, it's not Proboards who will be liable, it's the 'owner' of the forum.
Lee T
pfm Member
But again, how did you determine any of this, was the test in the shop carried out blind or sighted?
Nothing better than to think your little set up blasts away a few grand's worth of equipment in a dem room, expectation bias can work differently than you intend it too sometimes.
I used to take my stuff with me for shop demos, speakers, amps, whatever, I often returned with what I already owned as the upgrade didn't satisfy, but it has to be carried out blind to eliminate bias, just looking at the stuff, even if you have no idea of make or model will influence what you hear, price, colour, size, shape, everything will determine your choices.
To determine this, a kindly shop owner from Stourbridge decided to take this on with me, just for kicks, he had in stock a set of Epos speakers in white, red & black, we sat, sighted & have a guess what, the white sounded cooler, the red richer & the black darker, unsighted, could not determine a single difference in sound with all 3 sets.
I carried out lots of this stuff back when I purchased new, it was fun & enlightening, stood me in good stead for the years to come & has certainly helped when reading stuff on forums.
Lee T
pfm Member
Nice post
If only some had a little more patience.