Tony Lockhart
Avoiding Stress, at Every Opportunity
The trouble is, you’d think you were wearing the right clothes, but it would all just be wrong. I prefer being a slob
The (almost) bi-polar nature of Naim's products and customers . . .
- Thread starter Bob Edwards
- Start date
The trouble is, you’d think you were wearing the right clothes, but it would all just be wrong. I prefer being a slob
wylton
Naim and Mana member
With all due respect though, the Naim Forum is a manufacturers site, so you’d have to be a bit naïve to be surprised that its hosted mostly be like-minded people that like the product! I was banned from there once; a guy posted that he had purchased a used pre-fix that had an Aro plug on it and by coincidence, I have just bought a pre-fix with a Linn plug on it! I offered a swap if he was able to remove the tonearm plug/lead. Apparently, that was an infringement of the forum rules, so the thread was pulled, and I was banned. Luckily, the poster and I had already exchanged details, so the swap went ahead, and we were both happy. I was subsequently reinstated, but I’ve not posted there much tbh.
Like a lot of people here, I like the older stuff and the later CB/Olive equipment. You bought an amplifier that had a built-in supply for the pre-amp (NAC32/42) and later, you could buy a naps/snaps until you reached the heady heights of the Hi-Cap! I think the Linn/Naim partnership was a good thing while it lasted; not too keen on the lifestyle products direction that both companies have taken now, but that’s progress for you, after all, you can’t sell the same product forever, though Linn are still selling the LP12 after all these years!
suzywong
Wot, no electrons?
Exactly my point about the language used. You wont find owners of Naim equipment using it about themselves (and yes, I fall into that category), or for that matter, about non-Naim owners.
OTOH, Baaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
suzywong
Wot, no electrons?
Respect!
You should wear it as a Badge of Honour......... much like being banned by Gladys from The Fifth Hants Volunteer, Southsea, back in the '70s
JensenHealey
pfm Member
It marketing orthodoxy that it is much easier, and cheaper, to sell to existing customers than it is to continually find new ones.
Naim are simply following this. Yes their products are typically expensive. I could easily afford them in principle but I would not wish to and my wife would not allow it.
And anyway I have heard Naim 'PRAT' and ran a mile with a hurting head.
So I am a slightly disinterested observer. But I do not begrudge them doing what they do. It is also true, I believe that many of their best customers are not the type to inhabit forums like this. Wealthy millionaire types who have their homes decorated by interior designers whilst they are away in the New York Condo, or cruising the Med on their boat, are a different breed.
Naim are simply following this. Yes their products are typically expensive. I could easily afford them in principle but I would not wish to and my wife would not allow it.
And anyway I have heard Naim 'PRAT' and ran a mile with a hurting head.
So I am a slightly disinterested observer. But I do not begrudge them doing what they do. It is also true, I believe that many of their best customers are not the type to inhabit forums like this. Wealthy millionaire types who have their homes decorated by interior designers whilst they are away in the New York Condo, or cruising the Med on their boat, are a different breed.
Del monaco
Del Monaco
We have to realise how lucky we are when compared to certain forums. People have disputes which are sometimes heated but most are forgiven and still included.
Do you actually think the millionaires with 2 homes and a yacht are naims main client base? I doubt it. If I wanted a statement for my yacht I'd be buying B&O and paying someone to connect it to a big TV withNetflix.
Timcat
pfm Member
I suspect that one of the reasons for this reaction to Naim is the high pricing and the perception that the "upgrade" route serves merely to make an optimally functioning product more expensive.
I have owned a lot of Naim equipment over the years and enjoyed all of it. I started with a 72 and a 140. I found the upgrade route (adding a high cap) useful because it provided an improvement and I couldn't afford it when I bought the 72 and 140. The ability to change from an MM to an MC cartridge by simply swapping a board in the 72 cannot be underestimated.
I moved from Naim for a variety of reasons. Firstly, I didn't rate my NAC 252 very highly; the volume pot wasn't compatible with my Naim CD players, as it reached full volume by 10 o'clock and the left and right tracks were poorly matched at low volume, it was also bettered by a Japanese preamp the cost half the price. Another was insufficient power to drive my then ATC speakers without spending a fortune (I used a black 250 in my main system at the time).
However, none of my Naim kit ever went wrong and it was all easily brought back up to brand new spec by a service. This advantage should not be underestimated; I have had quite a few dead boxes over the years and none were made by Naim.
I have owned a lot of Naim equipment over the years and enjoyed all of it. I started with a 72 and a 140. I found the upgrade route (adding a high cap) useful because it provided an improvement and I couldn't afford it when I bought the 72 and 140. The ability to change from an MM to an MC cartridge by simply swapping a board in the 72 cannot be underestimated.
I moved from Naim for a variety of reasons. Firstly, I didn't rate my NAC 252 very highly; the volume pot wasn't compatible with my Naim CD players, as it reached full volume by 10 o'clock and the left and right tracks were poorly matched at low volume, it was also bettered by a Japanese preamp the cost half the price. Another was insufficient power to drive my then ATC speakers without spending a fortune (I used a black 250 in my main system at the time).
However, none of my Naim kit ever went wrong and it was all easily brought back up to brand new spec by a service. This advantage should not be underestimated; I have had quite a few dead boxes over the years and none were made by Naim.
rontoolsie
pfm Member
There is a very fine line between 'pride of ownership' and 'hubris of ownership'.
No doubt people sleep better at nights knowing they have a dual brace of 555PS nourishing their ND555.
But do not forget where Naim started....Their amps breathed life into music that few others could at the time do.
I started off with a A&R A60E. Gave really good sound, or so I thought.
Until a friend of mine (in 1978) let me borrow his 32/160 (no Snaps, Hicap, Supercap...just the 160-powered 32), and from the very first note I was very taken aback by how MUCH an amp could add or subtract from the performance. Until that time I thought that more costly amps could maybe play louder, drive more difficult speakers and have less THD/TIM etc.
I can even remember the first track I played on the 32/160.....Even In the Quietest Moments-and the chirping bird at the beginning was no longer a recording-it was in my university dorm room. The vocals seemed full of emotion and were just carved into the ether between my speakers and myself. The keyboards notes lingered longer with gradual swells and decays. It was intoxicating.
In those few seconds of awakening, I knew that at some point I would become a Naim owner. And in the early days, becoming a Naim owner was like being inducted into a Gentlemans Club.
I also remember the first SNAPS I purchased...it cost 130UKP so was somewhat affordable for even an unemployed university student. And it DID improve on the 42/110, but it didn't make the Snap-less 42 sound broken by comparison. For a decent price it gave a decent improvement on what was already a decent level of performance.
No doubt people sleep better at nights knowing they have a dual brace of 555PS nourishing their ND555.
But do not forget where Naim started....Their amps breathed life into music that few others could at the time do.
I started off with a A&R A60E. Gave really good sound, or so I thought.
Until a friend of mine (in 1978) let me borrow his 32/160 (no Snaps, Hicap, Supercap...just the 160-powered 32), and from the very first note I was very taken aback by how MUCH an amp could add or subtract from the performance. Until that time I thought that more costly amps could maybe play louder, drive more difficult speakers and have less THD/TIM etc.
I can even remember the first track I played on the 32/160.....Even In the Quietest Moments-and the chirping bird at the beginning was no longer a recording-it was in my university dorm room. The vocals seemed full of emotion and were just carved into the ether between my speakers and myself. The keyboards notes lingered longer with gradual swells and decays. It was intoxicating.
In those few seconds of awakening, I knew that at some point I would become a Naim owner. And in the early days, becoming a Naim owner was like being inducted into a Gentlemans Club.
I also remember the first SNAPS I purchased...it cost 130UKP so was somewhat affordable for even an unemployed university student. And it DID improve on the 42/110, but it didn't make the Snap-less 42 sound broken by comparison. For a decent price it gave a decent improvement on what was already a decent level of performance.
There is a
Roog
pfm Member
Hello Timcat,
I'll try to avoid upsetting Naimies here, but one thing you said above interested me, can you tell me which Japanese pre amp worked well with your Naim amplification please? I am looking for a pre amp to go with my Naim power amp and I cannot/will not afford to play the Naim upgradis game. The reason for asking is that I have tried a few non Naim Preamps and they seem to lack the 'gusto**' of the Naim Pres. (** sorry I don't do audio descriptions very well)
Cheers
JensenHealey
pfm Member
Is 'Gusto' the same as 'PRAT'? That could be the problem - you don't hear about PRAT from other manufacturers.
jobseeker
pfm Member
Quarter of the way there
Ah yes, but on the other hand, anyone claiming that Naim aren't overpriced for the performance on offer is being disrespectful to all the companies or products that offer better sound quality for less money.
There is intrinsic value to, for example, a Naim NAP250. It's a reasonably good sounding power amp. However the intrinsic value is nowhere near the current £4000 retail price.
And as for customers listening to the alternatives, do you mean the Hobson's choice alternatives that your dealership happened to have?
Did your dealership stock Exposure, Pioneer Exclusive, Sony Eprit, Onkyo Integra, Accuphase, Urei / JBL amplifiers etc etc etc?
Whenever I've visited Naim dealers there has always been a very limited range of demo options available. So much so that historically Naim has been miss-sold in a similar way to the way that banks miss-sold PPI.
Bob McC
Living the life of Riley
Like Philip Green, I’d play nothing. I’d hire the band...
Bob McC
Living the life of Riley
Thank heavens for some sense among the bile.
Roog
pfm Member
I don't know, I started out with the sound logic that there is no such thing as 'Magic music dust' as some seem to think and as the Naim amps are essentially 'The circuits out of the RCA, buy our transistors book' I wouldn't expect anything special, but I have not had much luck finding an alternative non Naim pre which sounds ok with my Naim Power amp. So if there is a Japanese manufactured pre that works well I'd be interested.
Rockmeister
pfm Member
It's hard not to join in...
If it was just a Marmite thing...I like the sound/I hate the sound, then fine, The moaners are just that, but it's not is it.
It has three main problems.
Like any costly kit, there will be 'rich bastard' haters...
Then, like any maker who has taken their marketing to, and maybe just beyond, the point where making money and treating the customer base with some honesty have long since got divorced, there is a fair amount of criticism rightly aimed at profiteering, but mostly, for me anyway,
There is the simple fact that the same sound, or, a much nicer one, can be bought for FAR less money. I mean I could buy some, but since I also like to do other stuff. I won't.
Please don't expect me to have as much as one ounce of sympathy with the 'it's their/my money so I can do what I like' brigade. If you want to shout I'm thick and insensitive from the rooftops, please do.
Please don't expect me in the audience.... You don't care?
I knew
If it was just a Marmite thing...I like the sound/I hate the sound, then fine, The moaners are just that, but it's not is it.
It has three main problems.
Like any costly kit, there will be 'rich bastard' haters...
Then, like any maker who has taken their marketing to, and maybe just beyond, the point where making money and treating the customer base with some honesty have long since got divorced, there is a fair amount of criticism rightly aimed at profiteering, but mostly, for me anyway,
There is the simple fact that the same sound, or, a much nicer one, can be bought for FAR less money. I mean I could buy some, but since I also like to do other stuff. I won't.
Please don't expect me to have as much as one ounce of sympathy with the 'it's their/my money so I can do what I like' brigade. If you want to shout I'm thick and insensitive from the rooftops, please do.
Please don't expect me in the audience.... You don't care?
I knew
jobseeker
pfm Member
Sorry, I don’t get it. The concept of equal or better performance for less money can be applied to almost any product. Do people who criticise Naim for this appLy it to their shoes, underwear, beans or anything else in existence. I just don’t see the relevance. You buy what you like cos it gives you the feeling you want it to give - all for your own personal reasons. I bet virtually any kit owned by anyone on here can be bettered or equalled by something cheaper - in someone else’s opinion
johnacurtis
pfm Member
I like many different thing's some cheap, some expensive, I like Naim, but can't afford very high end stuff, but also know there is little point going too far as the room/house becomes the limiting factor! I do like dynamic sounding music though and at the moment my nap 250 dr is doing justice to John Mayall!